New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...

[Joe-JDC]

Actually, Ford did drill holes between the cylinders on their Motorsports blocks with siamesed cylinders.  It is used on all the Nascar style engines.  They simply drilled a small steam hole between the cylinders at an angle to let any trapped air be drawn off, and the small amount of cooling was a plus.  The head gaskets have small holes for this modification used on motorsports blocks.  We drilled drilled the blocks as early as the A4 block.  The small hole is not an issue on the non thrust walls, and it is only as small as the drill bit and at an angle, so not a strength issue.   Joe-JDC

[Autoholic]

One thing to consider is changes in how prototyping is being done and how it affects small run manufacturing. CNC machines are great, but 3D printing is becoming viable. The SpaceX rocket uses a metal 3D printed main oxidizer valve - hard to beat that for cool (although it has yet to win the 24 hours at Le Mans) http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/07/31/spacex-launches-3d-printed-part-space-creates-printed-engine-chamber-crewed. I don't think a 3D FE block is around the corner, but it may be viable to make the casting cores, and an important point, to make internal shapes that can't be made using conventional techniques.

I am curious about the raised cam idea and why it is necessary. I understand it allows a different angle to the lifter to resolve some of the pushrod/valve interference issues, but isn't the SOHC the elegant answer to that problem? Would it perhaps be a better use of time to make the SOHC parts more available?

I don't think a 3D metal block would be able to handle the stresses of a FE that's been built for max power. The problem with anything that is 3D printed vs the same part that has been forged, is strength. A forged part is homogeneous, where as a 3D printed part is not due to curing in layers. You'd be better off having a billet FE block.

But like you pointed out, 3D printing will make creating these parts easier and cheaper with a higher level of accuracy. The various molds needed could be created using 3D printing. The recent shift to CAD modeling will also make this cheaper.

[Yellow Truck]

I don't think a 3D metal block would be able to handle the stresses of a FE that's been built for max power. The problem with anything that is 3D printed vs the same part that has been forged, is strength. A forged part is homogeneous, where as a 3D printed part is not due to curing in layers.

You did respond to my real point, about using 3D printing to make the molds - in fact you could make pretty accurate wax molds and use the lost wax method. Having said that, I would have agreed with your point until I read that SpaceX are using 3D printing for their mixing nozzles, not only that, they are using them to make full rocket motors - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperDraco - I would surmise that they may have overcome some of the limitations of 3D printing.

3D printing is a generic term that isn't very informative about the actual process and technology in use. I do expect to hear some time soon that some madman is 3D printing engine blocks, and from what I've read, it would not shock me to find out it is Jay.

[Autoholic]

The problem with 3D printing is that everything cures in layers, even with powdered metal sintering. It's not that it cannot be used, it's that the material thickness has to be greater. Every method of creating something has its uses, where it shines and where it causes headaches. The below is likely a little biased due to being a forging company but many of the points are valid.

http://www.qcforge.com/Forging-vs-Powdered-Metal

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if information is coming from SpaceX or NASA, powdered metal sintering cannot achieve the same strength of forging given the same metal, when focusing on the metallurgical properties of both. But, every type of manufacturing comes with its own limitations and 3D printing from a design flexibility standpoint doesn't have many. Sometimes design flexibility can makeup for shortcomings in strength that enable the overall part to be stronger.

As for creating a custom FE block, I think it would need to be super low production runs and for the best results, a lost wax method  might be best.

[Cyclone Joe]

3D printing is great, but nobody is doing iron and few are doing aluminum due to the power demand.  At the rocket engine company I work for, we have some of the largest printers in the world, but they're printing platens are still only ~15"x15" square.  Keep in mind that post printing, you still have to send each part through a Hot Iso-static Pressure (HIP) process and additional heat treatment processes.  Its great, but like all things, the more you know, the less great it then becomes.  The process still has a long way to go before building larger parts such as an intake, and even further for a block.

Joe

[Autoholic]

Well, it depends on if you need the part to be metal or plastic...

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia-mobile/fna/us/en/news/2015/05/27/ford-using-computer-printed-parts-to-accelerate-product-developm.html

Ford is using 3D printed plastic parts for intakes on the FGT race car.

[ScotiaFE]

3D printing is great, but nobody is doing iron and few are doing aluminum due to the power demand.  At the rocket engine company I work for, we have some of the largest printers in the world, but they're printing platens are still only ~15"x15" square.  Keep in mind that post printing, you still have to send each part through a Hot Iso-static Pressure (HIP) process and additional heat treatment processes.  Its great, but like all things, the more you know, the less great it then becomes.  The process still has a long way to go before building larger parts such as an intake, and even further for a block.

Joe

I don't know Joe.
I had to google that and they have some pretty big 3d printers on the google.
Granted the aerospace probably has some very high end stuff, but there are guy's
in the shed building some stuff that is pretty crazy.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=large+3d+printer&biw=997&bih=775&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjKrb6y4IvNAhWpzIMKHTrbCKQQsAQISQ#tbm=isch&q=largest+3d+printer

[Jim Comet]

Just a random thought. Looking at the cross bolts for the 3 center main caps. They use bolts and spacers that help locate the mains and keep them from walking. Could you use stud in place of the bolts and use a beveled nut and seat like a lug nut to apply the pressure. My thought on this is it would help locate the main cap up and down and for and aft. Jim

[e philpott]

Just a random thought. Looking at the cross bolts for the 3 center main caps. They use bolts and spacers that help locate the mains and keep them from walking. Could you use stud in place of the bolts and use a beveled nut and seat like a lug nut to apply the pressure. My thought on this is it would help locate the main cap up and down and for and aft. Jim

 would make a big mess when you need to align bore the caps then have nothing fit afterwards .... edit to ad >>>  what would be neat is dowelled like BBM and then maybe 8 bolt main , 4 bolt main in the main web and 4 bolt cross bolts on the side

[Jim Comet]

Good point, I didn't think that far ahead.

[Cyclone Joe]

I had to google that and they have some pretty big 3d printers on the google.
Granted the aerospace probably has some very high end stuff, but there are guy's
in the shed building some stuff that is pretty crazy.

I should have been more clear. For printing metallics the plattens are still restricted to 15"x15" or so.  But you're right, for plastics like nylon they've gone to much larger machines.  The reason they can do that, is they dont need to have an inert atmosphere, and they dont need to heat the printing volumes.  The heat is captured at the head with nylon (or other plastics) whereas with metallics its either a laser or electron-beam.

So maybe you could nylon print the typical sand casting portion of the block or intake, and then pour it like a lost-wax method?
Joe

[Autoholic]

For metallic printing, i know of a company that can print up to 762 × 393 × 393 mm for stainless steel. That comes out to 30" x 15.5" x 15.5". Not a bad working area and the company doesn't seem to be that expensive. Depending on how large the mold is, you could create permanent molds for an intake or head. So there would be the permanent mold you pour into with aluminum and then another mold you use to create either ceramic or sand based hollow shapes out of. You could ship the molds off to a company like Jet Hot to get a special coating that serves as a heat barrier and a mold release barrier.

I need to get SolidWorks but once I eventually have that installed, I plan to figure out a way to import my SOHC model. I'd really like to create some parts for the engine and SolidWorks is an amazing platform to design them. I've already started working on a Weber intake (similar in design to the Super Cyclone SOHC), a set of COBRA valve covers and a gear drive. All I need is SolidWorks and some time to start developing the parts with more detail, I'll have some money to eventually put into the designs to make them happen. My first priority would be the intake, I feel I could probably create a prototype for $4-5000 and after that, sell copies for $3-4000. But this is all early estimation.

[jayb]

I had to google that and they have some pretty big 3d printers on the google.
Granted the aerospace probably has some very high end stuff, but there are guy's
in the shed building some stuff that is pretty crazy.

I should have been more clear. For printing metallics the plattens are still restricted to 15"x15" or so.  But you're right, for plastics like nylon they've gone to much larger machines.  The reason they can do that, is they dont need to have an inert atmosphere, and they dont need to heat the printing volumes.  The heat is captured at the head with nylon (or other plastics) whereas with metallics its either a laser or electron-beam.

So maybe you could nylon print the typical sand casting portion of the block or intake, and then pour it like a lost-wax method?
Joe

My new 3D printer is good for a 22" X 24" X 24" volume, using PLA, ABS, PVA, or nylon.  The foundry I work with is promoting 3D printed sand molds for castings (!), which is pretty cool.  Apparently they 3D print sand grains with some kind of a glue or binder, kind of the like the binder that holds airset sand together.  I think you also might be able to 3D print the form for the sand casting, and then make the sand molds from that, but I'd think that pouring aluminum into a 3D printed plastic form would just instantly melt the form and pollute the casting.  But who knows...

[Autoholic]

My new 3D printer is good for a 22" X 24" X 24" volume, using PLA, ABS, PVA, or nylon.  The foundry I work with is promoting 3D printed sand molds for castings (!), which is pretty cool.  Apparently they 3D print sand grains with some kind of a glue or binder, kind of the like the binder that holds airset sand together.  I think you also might be able to 3D print the form for the sand casting, and then make the sand molds from that, but I'd think that pouring aluminum into a 3D printed plastic form would just instantly melt the form and pollute the casting.  But who knows...

You can 3D print with metal as the material. This would be the way to go with a 3D printed mold. Or, create the positive molds with metal and then use sand or ceramics create the negative mold. I'd favor a permanent mold if you planned on producing the part more than once. Sometimes the shape of the part makes it rather difficult to go the permanent mold path and you're stuck using sand or ceramics. An intake however could be done with a permanent mold and then you just need some sand to fill the voids.

If you wanted to 3D print a part out of casting wax, you could go that route. Then just encase it in ceramics, melt the wax out and cast the part. Then spend a while chipping off the ceramic mold. This is more of a 1 off method however, as the wax part is destroyed and the ceramic mold can't be used again, unless you created it in layers the first time. Sand for voids will be easier to remove though.

[blykins]

Jay, shot you a reply to your PM.  I had been browsing without logging in and didn't know I had a message....