New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...

[cjshaker]

I'd assume that siamesed cylinders are a given in this discussion. Itd be the only way you could offer standard bore spacing and offset bore spacing in the same casting. I think all the current aftermarket blocks are siamesed cylinders, aren't they?

[ScotiaFE]

So less material should = cheaper, but then I suppose there would be development costs. If you are targeting the mainstream then your sales numbers should be higher. How many people do you think we have on these forums? Now think outside the forum. Seems like 2000 should be attainable. Are FE powered vehicles really that small?

I think the issue is not whether or not 2000 blocks could be sold, but rather how long it would take to sell them. Selling at a lower price, it would take a long time to recoup costs from such a major investment. Typically, only big companies can do that sort of thing. Now if you could sell those 2000 blocks in one or maybe 2 years, that would be different. You'd probably recoup your costs within half of that timeframe.

When a company first releases their block or head, such as BBM did, you'll get a rush of sales, partly because a lot of guys have been looking, waiting or are just jumping on the opportunity while it's there. Once that initial rush is over, sales will probably drop pretty drastically and even out at a much lower rate.

I'm not a business man, so that was all guessing, but it seems to be logical.

Doug, you should be a business man because you are exactly right on this.  A couple of my own examples:  When my book was released in 2010, I sold 450 in the first month. Since then, I am still selling them but only average 10-15 a month.  I re-couped my publishing costs on the first 400 books, but the costs of all that race gas, intake gaskets, sealer, etc. took me until 1000 books to recover.  Never mind getting paid for all my labor.  Don't get me wrong, I don't regret any of it, because I had a great time doing all those tests.  But as a business proposition, it would be a loser.

It is basically the same story on my intake adapters, I had a list of more than 100 people who wanted them and it took me quite some time to fill those orders.  As I went along building them some unexpected costs came up, and it ended up taking me 130 adapters to recover the tooling and machining costs associated with them.  Now I'm caught up on my list for the medium riser adapters, and selling them on ebay in addition to selling them directly, and they go out the door at about one per month.  So I'm making a little money on them, but nowhere hear enough to compensate for the hundreds of hours I put into that project.  Again its a good thing I enjoyed doing it, because as a pure business proposition they are a loser.

Now let's look at this run of 2000 cast iron FE blocks.  If the sale price is $1500, let's say that the cost of manufacturing, including amortizing the tooling over 2000 blocks, is $1000 per block.  To commit to getting 2000 done, that is an investment of 2 MILLION dollars up front.  I'm as FE-crazy as they come, but I would run screaming from a deal like that, even if I could afford it (which I can't).  Maybe you could sell 250 in the first year, but I'll bet you'd be selling 50 per year thereafter, and it would take you 35 years to sell them all.  From a gross profit standpoint you would make a million bucks, IF you could sell them all, over 35 years.  No guarantees on that one.  Meanwhile, you'd make more money investing in Treasury notes, and you wouldn't have to do any work.  The whole project makes no sense, even for someone like me who isn't looking to make their living on it.

We have to recognize that the size of the FE market is such that custom parts are going to be more expensive than they are for a small block Chev or LS engine.  Anybody who thinks different is welcome to make the big investment themselves, and see how that turns out!

So some confusion Jay. How many are they going to make?
They would have to have a target, no?
As I said I doubt that much more than 500 blocks total
from all manufacturers, Genesis, Shelby, Dove, Pond, BBM SOG
have even released to the public in the last 10 years.
Count them if you don't believe me.
I have one.
Who's next?

[jayb]

I think they are talking about fairly low volume production, to fill some gaps between their other production products; maybe 25-50 at a time.  But I think what we could do is, when production of the blocks is certain, get a list together of people who would be willing to buy when they were ready, and then order the required production volume at that time.  Basically the same kind of thing I did with my intake adapters.  That actually worked out pretty well; I had very few cancellations, and was able to sell the extras from the first batch to new customers.

By the way, I don't know how many FE blocks have been sold, but I can tell you that Shelby blocks are consecutively numbered with a serial number.  If I recall correctly I have blocks ranging from 300 to 900-something (not sure of the exact serial numbers), and the last one I bought was in 2008, so it wouldn't surprise me if Shelby alone has sold 1200+ blocks since they were released in the mid 1990s.

[ScotiaFE]

By the way, I don't know how many FE blocks have been sold, but I can tell you that Shelby blocks are consecutively numbered with a serial number.  If I recall correctly I have blocks ranging from 300 to 900-something (not sure of the exact serial numbers), and the last one I bought was in 2008, so it wouldn't surprise me if Shelby alone has sold 1200+ blocks since they were released in the mid 1990s.

Now that I think more about the Shelby block that would make sense
all the Cobra replica's. Doh
I must confess they start looking all the same after a while and I was not counting
those as I was thinking about this.
This what I think.
BBM- 100 to 110 iron all sold, they had some alum ones but not sure what happened
         but there has yet to be a release.
Genesis- 150-250? I have one. It was not a lot though.
SOG- 50-100?
Pond- Not sure. Low vol though.
Dove- ? Very low vol.
Shelby- 1200+

Over 20 years.

Hey I'm all for it, flood the market make 10,000 blocks. 
One day the FE will be like the Flatty.
A novelty. Even this FE craze will die off.
As "we" this generation moves on.
Even standard good 390 blocks are starting to creep up.
And they are NOT making any more of them. 

[Yellow Truck]

One thing to consider is changes in how prototyping is being done and how it affects small run manufacturing. CNC machines are great, but 3D printing is becoming viable. The SpaceX rocket uses a metal 3D printed main oxidizer valve - hard to beat that for cool (although it has yet to win the 24 hours at Le Mans) http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/07/31/spacex-launches-3d-printed-part-space-creates-printed-engine-chamber-crewed. I don't think a 3D FE block is around the corner, but it may be viable to make the casting cores, and an important point, to make internal shapes that can't be made using conventional techniques.

I am curious about the raised cam idea and why it is necessary. I understand it allows a different angle to the lifter to resolve some of the pushrod/valve interference issues, but isn't the SOHC the elegant answer to that problem? Would it perhaps be a better use of time to make the SOHC parts more available?

[fekbmax]

I think the list idea would be a good one, even if you had to take a deposit of some sorts because it's odvious you will have alot more on the line with a $4000 block than the adapters. I know it's crazy sounding and maybe would be to much to keep up with but it would be great if a pay check to pay check kinda guy like me could put a deposit down an even add $ to it as it goes along so maybe when the blocks are done and ready it won't be so much of a strain to plop down the remaining balance.  I know that's maybe not realistic but just a perspective from por boy racing... lol..

[fekbmax]

Im thinking that for the most part, the raised cam is mostly to be able to accommodate a longer stroke crank for more cubic inches..

[jayb]

I am curious about the raised cam idea and why it is necessary. I understand it allows a different angle to the lifter to resolve some of the pushrod/valve interference issues, but isn't the SOHC the elegant answer to that problem? Would it perhaps be a better use of time to make the SOHC parts more available?

Well, it certainly isn't necessary, but Keith is correct that it is to allow a longer stroke.  The SOHC allows that too, but the SOHC is a much more complicated engine, with a lot more potential for things to go wrong.  And its a lot more money...

[philminotti]

I'd definitely put my name on a list..
Jay, any thoughts about final machining?  Do you envision selling raw castings or finished products?  When I bought my Pond block from KCR back in the day, I paid for align honing, final bore honing, square decking, setting the sleeves, cam bearings etc.  Although some of these operations weren't done all that well , it was definitely a convenience to not have to ship it somewhere to have it done.

[jayb]

These would not be raw castings, but I don't think finish machining is on the menu, Phil.  You need specialized equipment for align honing, bore finishing, etc.  That equipment is not in the inventory of a typical CNC machine shop.  Probably these blocks would need all that stuff.  By the way, I got a Shelby block once and paid extra to have it align honed.  What a joke, the mains were way off.  I had to have my local shop do it again...

[fekbmax]

I think I'd almost want to be able to have those things done after acquiring the block. It's nice to be able to have someone at a shop that you trust do those things so you can comunacate and be in the loop.

[philminotti]

It can be a daunting task to find a conscientious shop that takes pride in their work.    My block originally had lovely egg shaped mains.  Had to crate it up and send it back to be redone.  Oh well.  No one ever said this hobby is supposed to be easy.

[WConley]

RE:  Siamesed bores

Jay - Since you're considering siamesed bores with heavy walls, you might ask the machinist if he can do a little trick we learned at Ford.  From a core plug, you drill a few small holes through the material between the bores.  We saw a lot of improvement in bore distortion from having a bit of cooling there.  The higher the better, of course!

[FirstEliminator]

  Here is an idea for more cubes and greater bore spacing-----make an Aluminum MEL block. Then you'll have the market cornered.



    Mark

[jayb]

RE:  Siamesed bores

Jay - Since you're considering siamesed bores with heavy walls, you might ask the machinist if he can do a little trick we learned at Ford.  From a core plug, you drill a few small holes through the material between the bores.  We saw a lot of improvement in bore distortion from having a bit of cooling there.  The higher the better, of course!

That's an interesting idea, Bill, but I don't think we'd have the space for that here.  For example, with the spread bore block, with bore spacing of 4.8 and finished bore size of 4.6, you only have 0.200" between the bores.  And 0.180" of that is taken up by sleeves if they use a .090" wall.  No room to drill the hole, really.

For a standard bore spacing it may work, although it might still be close.  Let's say you have a finished 4.25" bore, and 0.125" thick sleeves.  With the 4.63" bore spacing that would leave you a little more than 1/8" (0.130") to drill the hole.  If you went down to 0.090" sleeves you would have 0.200" to drill the hole, which I think would be best case.  Do you think such a small hole would help?