Author Topic: 577 SOHC Post Mortem  (Read 116394 times)

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jayb

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577 SOHC Post Mortem
« on: September 12, 2014, 09:34:55 PM »
Before I forget and get into all the gory details of the teardown, here is a dyno plot of the power this engine made on the dyno in August:




After getting home from Drag Week Monday night, I decided I needed to take a few days to get my shop cleaned up after the big thrash, before I tore down the engine to see what the problem was.  This took me all of Tuesday and Wednesday, and most of Thursday, but at the end of the night on Thursday I got the car pushed into the garage.  I pulled the valve covers on Thursday night, and everything looked fine.  I spun the engine over and all the valves seemed to open and close normally, no excessive lash, etc.  Then I decided to do a compression check on all the cylinders, still hoping that everything would be fine there.  Unfortunately it wasn't, cylinder 5 had zero compression.  I had been thinking that if the compression in all the cylinders had looked good, maybe I could just pull the pan and fix whatever was wrong with the engine still in the car.  That was obviously out of the question now, so I left the shop Thursday night knowing that the engine had to come out.

I spent most of the day today getting the engine ready to pull.  Finally got it out around 4:00, and started the teardown.  Found quite a few surprising things; I made this short video to hit the highlights:

http://youtu.be/H4R6wZu8wdg

At the track last Sunday I had assumed that I had not damaged the block because the water jackets had not been breached.  Obviously, that was not correct, and I think I'm lucky that the cracks in the block did not extend into the water jacket; that will make repairing the block much easier.  The remnants of the #5 connecting rod spun really easily on the journal, which was a big surprise also.  Obviously I had a beam failure.  These are not cheap rods, they are Crower billet steel connecting rods, $1400 a set and supposedly good for 1000 HP and 8000 RPM.  At the track, with the weather conditions last Sunday, I was probably running 900 HP and the rev limiter was set at 7800 RPM.  To say that I'm surprised and disappointed by this rod failure is an understatement.  I took the remains of the rod off the crank, and also removed the #1 rod.  On the #5 rod the top rod bearing was real shiny, indicating it had been beaten pretty hard as the broken rod stub repeated smashed into the side of the block, but the cap side looked perfect, and in fact still had the coating on the rod bearing.  Also, the rod journal looks perfect; see the pics below:





That is a Crower billet steel crank, and I'll bet there is nothing wrong with it; I'll have it magnafluxed and checked for straightness, but I'll bet I can re-use it.  The number 5 piston is jammed into the bore at the bottom, and that may have saved the heads; here's a picture of the stuck piston with part of the connecting rod still attached:



After all this trauma I would have bet my bottom dollar that the timing chain would have broken; imagine the stress forces and harmonic shocks going through that thing with the broken rod spinning around hitting the block and oil pan!  But Paul Munro's chains are really strong, and the chain tension is still right where it is supposed to be. Amazing.

Thinking back about the pass where the failure occurred, I started off by doing the burnout at 5000-6000 RPM on the tach, and shifting from first to second to get a good burn on the tires.  Everything about the burnout was normal. I pulled to the line and footbraked the car while holding the RPM at 3000, the smashed the throttle and released the brake at the last yellow.  The car left the line and started missing almost immediately; I think that is when the rod broke.  But I don't think the engine was missing; what I think I was hearing was the broken rod flopping around in the engine.  After the 1-2 shift, the "missing" stopped and the engine seemed to accelerate normally, and I'll bet that's when part of the rod beam broke off the big end and exited through the oil pan.

For the #1 and #5 cylinders I will definitely need new sleeves for the block, and new pistons, but so far the other six pistons and sleeves look OK, and might be re-usable.  I haven't pulled the heads yet but am hopeful that there is no damage to them, or to the valves, because everything looks good up top, and all the spark plugs look good too.  I'll find out tomorrow when I finish the teardown.  I was also pleased to see the condition of the bearings, and the fact that there weren't any bolts missing or anything dumb like that.  The worst thing would have been to find that I made some stupid mistake assembling the engine and paid for it with this failure, but this is clearly a component failure, not any problem with assembly.  Of course it is possible that I set the rev limiter too high at 7800 RPM; I picked that number because it represents a piston speed of 6000 feet per minute, which I've run before successfully.  But maybe I was on borrowed time with that, and need to reduce the rev limit to 7500 (piston speed 5750).  I guess I'm not sure.  I've had the rods since 2008, and ran them on the dyno several times, and at Drag Week in 2009, where I kept the same 7800 RPM rev limit.  Maybe I've just stressed them to the point where the one rod fatigued and let go.

In any case, I'll be looking at a new set of rods for this engine.  I spent some time talking to Blair P about this tonight, and his thoughts were that due to the heavy piston required for the SOHC, maybe the rod was not good for 1000 HP and 8000 RPM, and also that fatigue may have set in since I've been running these rods pretty hard since 2009.   We're going to be talking to Crower next week about a custom rod with a thicker beam section that may handle the requirements of this engine a little better.

Depending on the lead times it may take me up to several months to get this engine back together, but that will give me some time to build a new set of headers to try on the dyno, and maybe a new sheet metal intake too.  Since the car is pretty much done now, once the engine is finished up it should go back in the car with a minimum of fuss, and hopefully I can be out to the track a little earlier next year.  Assuming I can get into Drag Week in 2015, I plan to go back with this combination again.

Once again, thanks to all you guys for the moral support on this project.  I'll get this program sorted out in the end - Jay

Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2014, 09:48:26 PM »
You're a good doctor of diagnosis. The heavy piston, 6K ft/minute and lots of heavy use were likely the cause of the fatigue failure as the beam was overstressed. Hopefully all the parts you mentioned are still good! Care to venture a guess on the # of runs those rods had or total running time? Maybe a Hobbs meter is in order to track when to replace them. Any thought too as to aluminum rods like the BME's the top fuel cars run? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbs_meter

http://bmeltd.com/rods.htm
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 10:01:13 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2014, 10:22:16 PM »
I had the same thing happen to me earlier this year with a brand new set of rods (el-cheapo crapola) and the damage was terrible.  I'm surprised you broke one of those rods though.

Jay, have you ever considered going to an aluminum rod such as a BME or GRP?  They can overbuild the aluminum rods and they are still a little lighter than the steel ones and will take quite the punishment.  I think they are just fine for a limited street/strip deal.  I wouldn't use them in a 100,000 mile stocker but you know what I mean. 

I also know someone who's VERY good at sleeving blocks and repairing damage like you have.  I think you've been to the shop :)

I am very sorry to see this Jay, your positive attitude about it is refreshing though.  I would not be as outwardly calm about it as you are. 

turbohunter

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2014, 10:23:25 PM »
Pretty incredible stuff.
Marc
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R-WEST

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2014, 10:37:08 PM »
Just, wow!!  :-[

Well, on the bright side, you have a whole year to get things perfect for next year!!  You'll be able to clean up your shop before you leave and everything!!   :D

Running a 10.38 with a rod flopping around in there - just imagine what it'll do with all of 'em actually connected and working happily together!!   8)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 10:40:20 PM by R-WEST »

jayb

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2014, 10:41:01 PM »
Bob, I'm going to guess there are over 100 dyno pulls on the motor, and probably 30 passes down the track.  LOTS of hits on the rev limiter at the track, too, which obviously doesn't do the engine any good...

Mark, I would love to go to an aluminum rod, but I don't think there's room in the crankcase for one.  The ones I've seen are a lot bigger on the big end than the steel rods, and I have pretty limited clearance between the rod end and the skirt of the block.

I was thinking about giving Randy a call on this one.  And by the way, I was NOT outwardly calm earlier in the week  >:(
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

TomP

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2014, 10:44:39 PM »
Sorry to heard about the mass carnage Jay.
 I'm not sure what happened to that white Torino , haven't seen it lately so it looks like all FE's are out. It rained today anyways, finishes in the morning.

fastback 427

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2014, 10:56:26 PM »
All the broken pieces and parts aside,  look at that friggen dyno sheet! That's ridiculous. Not a person who wouldn't want that under the hood. If crower gets you a better set of rods they should call them the Jay Brown signature series. 8)
Jaime
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900HP

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2014, 10:58:08 PM »
Bob, I'm going to guess there are over 100 dyno pulls on the motor, and probably 30 passes down the track.  LOTS of hits on the rev limiter at the track, too, which obviously doesn't do the engine any good...

Mark, I would love to go to an aluminum rod, but I don't think there's room in the crankcase for one.  The ones I've seen are a lot bigger on the big end than the steel rods, and I have pretty limited clearance between the rod end and the skirt of the block.

I was thinking about giving Randy a call on this one.  And by the way, I was NOT outwardly calm earlier in the week  >:(

I don't know if he will weld that one, if he won't I know someone who can.  Randy can definitely get it all straightened out after welding though.  He may also weld it, you'll have to check. 

cammerfe

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2014, 11:33:20 PM »
Regarding rods, GRP is a really excellent outfit to work with. And as for welding, Chris Razor is the equivalent of the finest neurosurgeon.

KS

machoneman

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2014, 07:36:05 AM »
Got it on the size of a forged aluminum rod. But.....I do think you should contact BME or GRP and get actual rod dimensions for a check of the crankcase size limits. Heck, you might able to get a banged up rod from them, forgetting the pin end, that would at least bolt to the crankpin and do a swinging check.

As I'm sure you know, the modern nitro fuel crowd is pushing near 8,000 hp at near 8,000 rpm in competition so we know they are strong rods. But, they also pitch said rods after x runs even if they exhibit no rod stretch, pin side hole elongation or big end bearing issues.

That's a lot of hard running for your engine at max ft/min numbers and just maybe it's time to seriously measure it up for 'disposable' rods in the future. JMO!     
Bob Maag

My427stang

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2014, 09:50:37 AM »
Needless to say not a cammer guy nor do I build stuff that makes the power you do Jay.

That being said, the whole HP rating for rods is squishy at best, and I am sure you could calculate a load percentage difference when you add weight with the SOHC pistons even if it was just a WAG. 

Second, thing that probably isn't addressed is loading and unloading of the engine during wheel hop, initially you were fighting some suspension issues, it could have approached normal load then released, maybe many times.

Third and probably most minor, but the tuning process, even on the dyno, depending on how you changed things, maybe a little detonation here and there, all can contribute to a little punishment.    Breaking the rod beam without a hammered bearing makes me think this is NOT the case, but just generating ideas on why

Last, could have been just a bad rod forging.  Shit happens

I would say though, in the changing environment you want to run, I would guess that being within 40 hp and 500 rpm of the rods rating is a little too close for comfort.

Questions for you

How heavy is the piston?

How long is the rod?

Are there better off the shelf rods out there?
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
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WConley

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2014, 10:40:27 AM »
Wow Jay.  I am shocked that this is a rod failure  :o

It's almost certainly a case of fatigue, originating in a flaw or "inclusion" in the material.  Check out that small end attached to the piston.  If the fracture surface isn't too beaten up you may see concentric "striations" surrounding the original flaw.  Once the crack got big enough it snapped off clean.  You should see that too.

A quality billet steel rod usually won't break in half from being overloaded.  It would have bent or distorted, and the bearing would most likely have gone out-of-round and seized.  The caps will usually stretch out way before the rod beam breaks.  It's astonishing that the big end is in perfect shape.  That points most definitely to a material flaw in the beam. 

What a big fat bummer.  Glad everything seems rebuildable.  Oh - Don't worry about your piston speed either.  Piston speed limits are bandied about a lot, but it's really a piston ring lubrication issue.  Those rods can handle that level of stress.  If you want to be super sure, get several of the caps checked for roundness.  Maybe look at a couple of the other rod beams for straightness.  I bet they're fine!

The Crower guys will most likely say that you don't need anything more exotic than what you have.  Maybe go to a different brand like Oliver or Carillo for peace of mind.

What a huge bummer!

- Bill
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2014, 11:34:44 AM »

Questions for you

How heavy is the piston?

How long is the rod?

Are there better off the shelf rods out there?

1 - Interestingly enough, the spec sheets for my CP pistons have a blank spot for the weight.  Go figure.  Diamond pistons that are roughly equivalent weigh 585-610 grams, depending on bore and dome size.

2 - The rod is 6.700" center to center, with a .927 pin (SBC) and a 2.200" rod journal (BBC)

3 - I think Carillo rods may be better, and Pankl rods are supposed to be the best; those are the ones the Formula 1 guys use, and I'm told they can go $8K for a set.  Pankl also owns Carillo and CP pistons.  Oliver rods are supposed to be very good, but I've read recently that they are not as good as they used to be.  Crower stuff is generally top shelf, too.  After talking to Blair he thinks that Crower can do a custom rod that will be stronger than their off the shelf rod.  But if Bill is correct, the off the shelf Crower is probably fine, and I just got a bad one.  It will be interesting to see what Crower has to say...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

BH107

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Re: 577 SOHC Post Mortem
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2014, 12:09:26 PM »
Sorry to hear about your misfortune, but that's how racing goes sometimes.

On the rods, if it was a bad piece it probably wouldn't have lasted this long. More likely its just a fatigue issue from running pretty close to the limits of the rods.