FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => The Road to Drag Week 2014 => Topic started by: jayb on September 12, 2014, 09:34:55 PM
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Before I forget and get into all the gory details of the teardown, here is a dyno plot of the power this engine made on the dyno in August:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Road to Drag Week 2014/577SOHC.jpg)
After getting home from Drag Week Monday night, I decided I needed to take a few days to get my shop cleaned up after the big thrash, before I tore down the engine to see what the problem was. This took me all of Tuesday and Wednesday, and most of Thursday, but at the end of the night on Thursday I got the car pushed into the garage. I pulled the valve covers on Thursday night, and everything looked fine. I spun the engine over and all the valves seemed to open and close normally, no excessive lash, etc. Then I decided to do a compression check on all the cylinders, still hoping that everything would be fine there. Unfortunately it wasn't, cylinder 5 had zero compression. I had been thinking that if the compression in all the cylinders had looked good, maybe I could just pull the pan and fix whatever was wrong with the engine still in the car. That was obviously out of the question now, so I left the shop Thursday night knowing that the engine had to come out.
I spent most of the day today getting the engine ready to pull. Finally got it out around 4:00, and started the teardown. Found quite a few surprising things; I made this short video to hit the highlights:
http://youtu.be/H4R6wZu8wdg
At the track last Sunday I had assumed that I had not damaged the block because the water jackets had not been breached. Obviously, that was not correct, and I think I'm lucky that the cracks in the block did not extend into the water jacket; that will make repairing the block much easier. The remnants of the #5 connecting rod spun really easily on the journal, which was a big surprise also. Obviously I had a beam failure. These are not cheap rods, they are Crower billet steel connecting rods, $1400 a set and supposedly good for 1000 HP and 8000 RPM. At the track, with the weather conditions last Sunday, I was probably running 900 HP and the rev limiter was set at 7800 RPM. To say that I'm surprised and disappointed by this rod failure is an understatement. I took the remains of the rod off the crank, and also removed the #1 rod. On the #5 rod the top rod bearing was real shiny, indicating it had been beaten pretty hard as the broken rod stub repeated smashed into the side of the block, but the cap side looked perfect, and in fact still had the coating on the rod bearing. Also, the rod journal looks perfect; see the pics below:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Road to Drag Week 2014/rodbearing.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Road to Drag Week 2014/rodjournal.jpg)
That is a Crower billet steel crank, and I'll bet there is nothing wrong with it; I'll have it magnafluxed and checked for straightness, but I'll bet I can re-use it. The number 5 piston is jammed into the bore at the bottom, and that may have saved the heads; here's a picture of the stuck piston with part of the connecting rod still attached:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Road to Drag Week 2014/munchedpiston.jpg)
After all this trauma I would have bet my bottom dollar that the timing chain would have broken; imagine the stress forces and harmonic shocks going through that thing with the broken rod spinning around hitting the block and oil pan! But Paul Munro's chains are really strong, and the chain tension is still right where it is supposed to be. Amazing.
Thinking back about the pass where the failure occurred, I started off by doing the burnout at 5000-6000 RPM on the tach, and shifting from first to second to get a good burn on the tires. Everything about the burnout was normal. I pulled to the line and footbraked the car while holding the RPM at 3000, the smashed the throttle and released the brake at the last yellow. The car left the line and started missing almost immediately; I think that is when the rod broke. But I don't think the engine was missing; what I think I was hearing was the broken rod flopping around in the engine. After the 1-2 shift, the "missing" stopped and the engine seemed to accelerate normally, and I'll bet that's when part of the rod beam broke off the big end and exited through the oil pan.
For the #1 and #5 cylinders I will definitely need new sleeves for the block, and new pistons, but so far the other six pistons and sleeves look OK, and might be re-usable. I haven't pulled the heads yet but am hopeful that there is no damage to them, or to the valves, because everything looks good up top, and all the spark plugs look good too. I'll find out tomorrow when I finish the teardown. I was also pleased to see the condition of the bearings, and the fact that there weren't any bolts missing or anything dumb like that. The worst thing would have been to find that I made some stupid mistake assembling the engine and paid for it with this failure, but this is clearly a component failure, not any problem with assembly. Of course it is possible that I set the rev limiter too high at 7800 RPM; I picked that number because it represents a piston speed of 6000 feet per minute, which I've run before successfully. But maybe I was on borrowed time with that, and need to reduce the rev limit to 7500 (piston speed 5750). I guess I'm not sure. I've had the rods since 2008, and ran them on the dyno several times, and at Drag Week in 2009, where I kept the same 7800 RPM rev limit. Maybe I've just stressed them to the point where the one rod fatigued and let go.
In any case, I'll be looking at a new set of rods for this engine. I spent some time talking to Blair P about this tonight, and his thoughts were that due to the heavy piston required for the SOHC, maybe the rod was not good for 1000 HP and 8000 RPM, and also that fatigue may have set in since I've been running these rods pretty hard since 2009. We're going to be talking to Crower next week about a custom rod with a thicker beam section that may handle the requirements of this engine a little better.
Depending on the lead times it may take me up to several months to get this engine back together, but that will give me some time to build a new set of headers to try on the dyno, and maybe a new sheet metal intake too. Since the car is pretty much done now, once the engine is finished up it should go back in the car with a minimum of fuss, and hopefully I can be out to the track a little earlier next year. Assuming I can get into Drag Week in 2015, I plan to go back with this combination again.
Once again, thanks to all you guys for the moral support on this project. I'll get this program sorted out in the end - Jay
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You're a good doctor of diagnosis. The heavy piston, 6K ft/minute and lots of heavy use were likely the cause of the fatigue failure as the beam was overstressed. Hopefully all the parts you mentioned are still good! Care to venture a guess on the # of runs those rods had or total running time? Maybe a Hobbs meter is in order to track when to replace them. Any thought too as to aluminum rods like the BME's the top fuel cars run?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbs_meter
http://bmeltd.com/rods.htm
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I had the same thing happen to me earlier this year with a brand new set of rods (el-cheapo crapola) and the damage was terrible. I'm surprised you broke one of those rods though.
Jay, have you ever considered going to an aluminum rod such as a BME or GRP? They can overbuild the aluminum rods and they are still a little lighter than the steel ones and will take quite the punishment. I think they are just fine for a limited street/strip deal. I wouldn't use them in a 100,000 mile stocker but you know what I mean.
I also know someone who's VERY good at sleeving blocks and repairing damage like you have. I think you've been to the shop :)
I am very sorry to see this Jay, your positive attitude about it is refreshing though. I would not be as outwardly calm about it as you are.
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Pretty incredible stuff.
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Just, wow!! :-[
Well, on the bright side, you have a whole year to get things perfect for next year!! You'll be able to clean up your shop before you leave and everything!! :D
Running a 10.38 with a rod flopping around in there - just imagine what it'll do with all of 'em actually connected and working happily together!! 8)
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Bob, I'm going to guess there are over 100 dyno pulls on the motor, and probably 30 passes down the track. LOTS of hits on the rev limiter at the track, too, which obviously doesn't do the engine any good...
Mark, I would love to go to an aluminum rod, but I don't think there's room in the crankcase for one. The ones I've seen are a lot bigger on the big end than the steel rods, and I have pretty limited clearance between the rod end and the skirt of the block.
I was thinking about giving Randy a call on this one. And by the way, I was NOT outwardly calm earlier in the week >:(
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Sorry to heard about the mass carnage Jay.
I'm not sure what happened to that white Torino , haven't seen it lately so it looks like all FE's are out. It rained today anyways, finishes in the morning.
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All the broken pieces and parts aside, look at that friggen dyno sheet! That's ridiculous. Not a person who wouldn't want that under the hood. If crower gets you a better set of rods they should call them the Jay Brown signature series. 8)
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Bob, I'm going to guess there are over 100 dyno pulls on the motor, and probably 30 passes down the track. LOTS of hits on the rev limiter at the track, too, which obviously doesn't do the engine any good...
Mark, I would love to go to an aluminum rod, but I don't think there's room in the crankcase for one. The ones I've seen are a lot bigger on the big end than the steel rods, and I have pretty limited clearance between the rod end and the skirt of the block.
I was thinking about giving Randy a call on this one. And by the way, I was NOT outwardly calm earlier in the week >:(
I don't know if he will weld that one, if he won't I know someone who can. Randy can definitely get it all straightened out after welding though. He may also weld it, you'll have to check.
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Regarding rods, GRP is a really excellent outfit to work with. And as for welding, Chris Razor is the equivalent of the finest neurosurgeon.
KS
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Got it on the size of a forged aluminum rod. But.....I do think you should contact BME or GRP and get actual rod dimensions for a check of the crankcase size limits. Heck, you might able to get a banged up rod from them, forgetting the pin end, that would at least bolt to the crankpin and do a swinging check.
As I'm sure you know, the modern nitro fuel crowd is pushing near 8,000 hp at near 8,000 rpm in competition so we know they are strong rods. But, they also pitch said rods after x runs even if they exhibit no rod stretch, pin side hole elongation or big end bearing issues.
That's a lot of hard running for your engine at max ft/min numbers and just maybe it's time to seriously measure it up for 'disposable' rods in the future. JMO!
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Needless to say not a cammer guy nor do I build stuff that makes the power you do Jay.
That being said, the whole HP rating for rods is squishy at best, and I am sure you could calculate a load percentage difference when you add weight with the SOHC pistons even if it was just a WAG.
Second, thing that probably isn't addressed is loading and unloading of the engine during wheel hop, initially you were fighting some suspension issues, it could have approached normal load then released, maybe many times.
Third and probably most minor, but the tuning process, even on the dyno, depending on how you changed things, maybe a little detonation here and there, all can contribute to a little punishment. Breaking the rod beam without a hammered bearing makes me think this is NOT the case, but just generating ideas on why
Last, could have been just a bad rod forging. Shit happens
I would say though, in the changing environment you want to run, I would guess that being within 40 hp and 500 rpm of the rods rating is a little too close for comfort.
Questions for you
How heavy is the piston?
How long is the rod?
Are there better off the shelf rods out there?
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Wow Jay. I am shocked that this is a rod failure :o
It's almost certainly a case of fatigue, originating in a flaw or "inclusion" in the material. Check out that small end attached to the piston. If the fracture surface isn't too beaten up you may see concentric "striations" surrounding the original flaw. Once the crack got big enough it snapped off clean. You should see that too.
A quality billet steel rod usually won't break in half from being overloaded. It would have bent or distorted, and the bearing would most likely have gone out-of-round and seized. The caps will usually stretch out way before the rod beam breaks. It's astonishing that the big end is in perfect shape. That points most definitely to a material flaw in the beam.
What a big fat bummer. Glad everything seems rebuildable. Oh - Don't worry about your piston speed either. Piston speed limits are bandied about a lot, but it's really a piston ring lubrication issue. Those rods can handle that level of stress. If you want to be super sure, get several of the caps checked for roundness. Maybe look at a couple of the other rod beams for straightness. I bet they're fine!
The Crower guys will most likely say that you don't need anything more exotic than what you have. Maybe go to a different brand like Oliver or Carillo for peace of mind.
What a huge bummer!
- Bill
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Questions for you
How heavy is the piston?
How long is the rod?
Are there better off the shelf rods out there?
1 - Interestingly enough, the spec sheets for my CP pistons have a blank spot for the weight. Go figure. Diamond pistons that are roughly equivalent weigh 585-610 grams, depending on bore and dome size.
2 - The rod is 6.700" center to center, with a .927 pin (SBC) and a 2.200" rod journal (BBC)
3 - I think Carillo rods may be better, and Pankl rods are supposed to be the best; those are the ones the Formula 1 guys use, and I'm told they can go $8K for a set. Pankl also owns Carillo and CP pistons. Oliver rods are supposed to be very good, but I've read recently that they are not as good as they used to be. Crower stuff is generally top shelf, too. After talking to Blair he thinks that Crower can do a custom rod that will be stronger than their off the shelf rod. But if Bill is correct, the off the shelf Crower is probably fine, and I just got a bad one. It will be interesting to see what Crower has to say...
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Sorry to hear about your misfortune, but that's how racing goes sometimes.
On the rods, if it was a bad piece it probably wouldn't have lasted this long. More likely its just a fatigue issue from running pretty close to the limits of the rods.
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I am amazed that the block is considered repairable.
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I side with the defective part group.
A mid-beam failure is definitely not an assembly issue.
I believe that you could put about hundreds of pulls and passes on a drag race rod without approaching the cycle life of a serious oval track or road race effort in a single race. I also do not think piston weight or piston speed were outside of the expected life parameters for a good billet rod - only a couple hundred pulls or passes ain't that much in the context of such things. I suspect a flaw in the material. Does Crower use a 300M or similar? Seems to be the current darling of the oval track crowd these days.
I wonder if your elusive rod knock noise could have been piston to head contact as the rod stretched prior to failure - would have quieted down with variances in temperature?
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I see the suggestion has already been voiced but I thought. I would throw it out there anyhow. In my SB chubbies I used to run Carrillo rods and Venolia pistons. I could run that set up with a 400 crank up to 8 Gs all day long. For some reason the aluminum rod and of course the lighter piston helped immensely with stabilizing harmonics. I actually still have the engine as it held together for over 10 years of severe abuse and street ( Ahem) use LOL. I did however have issues with melted pistons due to alloys were not what they are today. One issue I ran across a lot is the invariable rod twist that occurs naturally does do the paper clip effect eventually on steel, the harder the steel the more brittle it becomes. This natural twist from loading and unloading of course has a greater effect on steel than something like 7005 aluminum. 1540 steel and 7005 aluminum are both heat treated metals but aluminum is more forgiving. Just some food for though :-)
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Man.... Super sorry to see and hear that Jay! With those light weight pistons and all... Wonder if the rod material had a defect in them and you found the one that did. Anyways, I hope things go better for you Jay!!! 8)
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All good points by Mr. Conley, and Barry mentioned the 300M. You can get them, but they are spensive. I think a little more meat in the beam couldn't hurt. A feller could also X-ray the new rods, and be sure there are no issues beforehand. An X-ray is cheaper than a redo. It ran alot considering the power level, and the stroke. Most engines that run sustained have no where near that power level, or that stroke, or that piston weight. I worry about the fuel, the rev limiter, and maybe the need for a larger diameter on the damper.
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Welding is a comparatively easy deal in Detroit.
You just need to bring your checkbook.
Marcella would weld that one up in a minute...in his sleep.
Razor could do it underwater...blindfolded.
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I agree with material failure as the most likely culprit with the mid beam break. I also wonder if there is an issue with the offset cylinders causing stress on the rods and sideloading them unevenly. I would not consider re-using any of those rods until they were thoroughly sonic tested or x-rayed for metal fatigue. I also agree that piston speed is not a problem for short bursts of time at your rpm/stroke. Sorry for the carnage, it would/will be interesting to know how quick you can go with a healthy engine. Joe-JDC
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2X on the material flaw with that rod. At these power levels X-raying them is the way to go no matter who's rod they are. We broke an Oliver rod at the beam on a 331 SBF making 1500 hp. The crank and all the other major parts were saved but the piston was turned sideways in the bore so the block was junked. It did end up being a flaw with the rod after closer examination. I'm really bummed about the breakdown Jay, very sorry. Like they said about the 6 Million Dollar Man (1 Billion in todays $$$) Steve Austin...."we can build him better, stronger, faster"....
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Got the engine the rest of the way apart yesterday. The #5 piston wasn't stuck in the bore too badly, and came out with a couple of taps of the hammer handle from underneath. After I got it out I knocked out the pin and gave the remains of the rod a good once over. Sure enough, there were the striations that Bill Conley had predicted:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Road to Drag Week 2014/brokenrod1.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Road to Drag Week 2014/brokenrod2.jpg)
In the oil pan I found various shards of connecting rod, but most of it was missing, obviously exiting through the hole in the pan or the block. Here's the broken #5 rod next to the intact #1 rod:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Road to Drag Week 2014/2rods.jpg)
That is a LOT of material that went flying out of this engine LOL!
The only other area of real concern was the left head, and I figured I got off light there because the valvetrain still looked good. After pulling the head I cleaned up the chamber and saw some witness marks where the piston had smashed into the chamber. Here's a picture of the #5 chamber:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Road to Drag Week 2014/chamberhit.jpg)
This really isn't too bad, and I'm sure I can still run the head as is after cleaning up the chamber a little.
This week I'll get the crank into the shop to get checked and work on finding someone to weld up the block. If I can't find someone around here to do it I'll ship it to Barry and he can have Marcella or Razor do it. I'll have to make some decisions on the rods, get some new pistons and sleeves ordered, etc. Depending on part lead times I should be able to get this engine back together early in 2015. When I get it back together and on the dyno I'll post the results in the technical forum. In the meantime, now that Drag Week is over, I can get back to my endless list of other projects ::)
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If I can't find someone around here to do it I'll ship it to Barry and he can have Marcella or Razor do it. I'll have to make some decisions on the rods, get some new pistons and sleeves ordered, etc. Depending on part lead times I should be able to get this engine back together early in 2015. When I get it back together and on the dyno I'll post the results in the technical forum. In the meantime, now that Drag Week is over, I can get back to my endless list of other projects ::)
Barry was referencing those guys to weld up that ROD. The block will be too easy for those guys! ;D
Good Luck, and I'm glad it's not nearly as bad as it could have been! I guess you'll be getting the rods checked for cracks whenever the engine is down from now on?
It's so odd that you got a flawed rod like that from Crower. I guess when you're pushing parts like that, flaws that would go unnoticed by lesser engines, make themselves known when you're pushing almost 1000hp at close to 8k rpm.
I admire your positive attitude! That, and your energy can be contagious!
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I guess you'll be getting the rods checked for cracks whenever the engine is down from now on?
Boy, you've got that right! I always considered the Crower rods "forgettable" because they have such a stellar reputation. Now, not so much...
By the way, nice to see you here, Mike!
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I'm no metallurgy specialist but it sure looks like there are some voids in the center of that casting.
It looks like a casting to me anyway.
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Wow, Mr. Conely was right on the money! Impressive.
But, Bill do you think an x-ray would have shown this? I wonder.......
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Sometimes it's not fun to be right :-[
If you follow the striations to their center, it looks like a flaw at or near the surface. Magnaflux would probably have caught that, but X-rays aren't as effective at spotting stuff near the surface. Like Barry says, there really weren't very many cycles on that piece. It must have been a pretty sizable flaw...
It would be interesting to see a magnaflux inspection of a few more rods. That would really tell you if it was a fluke.
The photos that Jay posted above could go right into a Strength of Materials textbook. This failure could possibly have been prevented by shot-peening, but it depends on the alloy and heat treating. Crower could give more insight on this.
I'm glad to hear you're on track to get the engine back together!
- Bill
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If you follow the striations to their center, it looks like a flaw at or near the surface. Magnaflux would probably have caught that, but X-rays aren't as effective at spotting stuff near the surface. Like Barry says, there really weren't very many cycles on that piece. It must have been a pretty sizable flaw...
- Bill
Bill, just trying to learn here. Are you saying the flaw was in the material or the machining process? If it was below the surface it would seem likely that it would have been a material flaw, something that should concern Crower themselves. If on the surface, then perhaps a result of the machining process itself?
It's also interesting that you say a magnuflux would have likely caught that but an X-ray probably wouldn't have. I thought the whole purpose of an X-ray was to see flaws within the material itself and that magnufluxing only detected surface flaws? It reminds me of the airliner that crashed at Sioux City, Iowa that was traced to a small internal flaw in a turbine blade that was smaller than the size of a piece of tiny sand. At these power levels it does drive home the point that even the smallest surface "nick" can lead to catastrophe, and that the high stress components like rods and cranks should be treated with kid gloves.
And Jay, thanks for sharing all of this so that we can all learn. Bills signature saying is something we should all strive to remember...."A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success."
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Also, are the striations where the flaw is or are the striations next to and a result of the flaw.
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Doug -
Hard to tell without a close inspection, but it's possible that something happened during processing. A dull/ broken tool or interruption in machining coolant could have caused a hot spot or tear in the material. If there was a flaw embedded in the material, and it ended up exposed on the surface (during machining), that would be really bad. Even a ding or nick in handling can start a problem. Tough to tell from far away!
X-ray inspection is great for spotting voids / flaws deep in the material. The surface is tougher for X-ray, because it creates lots of shadows. That's where magnaflux steps in and shines. You can see surface flaws or cracks that extend up near the surface very clearly with a magnaflux inspection. Deeper than about 1/8", I was taught, magnaflux is not effective.
I'll let the real experts chime in, because I haven't done this stuff in almost 30 years. Been mostly on the design side since then...
Edit: Turbohunter- The striations radiate away from the flaw - the epicenter. Imagine all of those rings surrounding a point, in this case on (or near) the surface. The crack started at that tiny point, and grew as the rod was cycled. The striations are witness marks from the crack growing.
- Bill
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Aah, thank you.
I was 180 out thinking that the rough spot in the middle of the beam was the weak point.
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Bill if you don't mind,and understanding your just seeing a picture, can you give us an idea of why the broken rod would have the different colors ? I'm sure I am 100% wrong, are the gold areas marks of high heat ? I see the bright silver as spots that got hit or hammered. I also see some deep grey ( looks like iron color). Then in the center of the rod those 3 dark spots .
Back years ago my Dad then I worked in a non ferrous foundry the workers from Mexico would heat their lunch's on the edges of the crucibles, 1350* a few inchs away will heat your tacos real well. Anyway one day somebody dropped a foil wrapped taco in the pot then "forgot" to scoop it out or tell anybody. 400lbs of aluminum was trashed along with 1/2 a day of production. The problem was found in by a machinist after heat treat,,straitening ect... a single piece of foil and taco grease. I got to see some of the parts they had small black specs inside and dimples on the surface after machining. The machinist was the first to notice the pour surface finish.
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Cyclone03 -
You are correct that the shiny spots are generally where hits occurred. If the rod hadn't hit anything, you would probably see the darker color all across the fracture surface where it separated rapidly. The gold is also in areas that got hit. That could be material transfer from aluminum (+ heat or ??). Edit - Looks like scrape marks in those gold spots, so it probably is heat. Hard to tell from a photo...
Edit - Gotta laugh at the tacos in the vat story! At Ford's Essex Aluminum Plant, they had stacks of old Maytag washing machines. The aluminum frames had just the right alloy content to sweeten the mix they were melting for cylinder heads. The foreman would do a quick composition test of the melt, then order "Four Maytags" (or whatever number) to get the alloy just right :)
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Thanks for all the explanation Mr. Conley.
Really interesting stuff.
Curious what Crower would have to say.
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No need for formality guys! I don't feel that old and stuffy. Just about to turn fifty in a couple of weeks ;)
Things like this cause my inner nerd to come out. Most of the time I'm busting my knuckles in the machine shop, or trying to fix crappy designs on a CAD workstation.
Bill is just fine ;)
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Those "beach marks" sure are one of the "best" images I have seen for quite a while to illustrate a fatigue failure caused by some sort of flaw. Really sorry to see that - even though they pretty much exonerate you from any fault in the engine's demise.
As Bill noted - you can usually follow the marks to the epicenter of the failure. It might just be an artifact of the photo - but in the second image it appears that there might be a couple suspicious rounded spots just inboard of the surface near the failure centerpoint. The piece just starts breaking open in small sections as cycles accumulate until the remaining cross section is no longer capable of supporting the load. Then it separates.
My engine assembly guy - Marc - might be able to add some commentary since his job description involved the lab work of breaking expensive things at Howmet and American Axle for a while.
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How about a time frame guys? I'd been wondering IF Jay could have been correct on his LOL "Mother's Intuition" and actually heard something starting of the impending carnage when he was concerned about the noise just prior to leaving for Drag Week when he was going to have it aligned. Ironically when you consider she blew on the very, repeat VERY first run - that says for sure there was less then one 1/4 mile run since Jay heard the noises. Did all those "beach marks" and other indicators happen in only 2-3 seconds of WOT on the fatal run or is it more likely Jay showed up at Drag Week with a Race Horse that already had a bullet in it?..................
Have to say I'm confused on the fatigue being checked for by Magnafluxing and X-Ray "inspections". Sure I can understand a spec of debris within or inclusion that the "inspections" likely may catch. I think of the "paper clip" example given. Are you actually telling me you bend the Paper-Clip one time and it has a degree of fatigue, you bend it five times and obviously it now has five-times more degrees of fatigue, but at that point is there anything in Magnafluxing and X-Ray that will say yes this Paper Clip has more fatigue then a brand new part?......... What I'm saying is I'd believe there could be a hell of a lot of "paper clip bends" before Magnafluxing and X-Ray can tell the difference between a brand new clip and a clip that has been flexed nearly to the point of fatigue that initiates failure. Those suggesting "using" the remaining "tested in combat rods" after they have been Magnafluxed and X-Ray'd is hard to comprehend.
As mentioned "the" one rod may have died from defect/fatigue but the brothers and sisters are likely very similar and dam well came from the exact same source. Remember a AA/FD only turns the crank over about 250 times or less on an entire 1/4 mile run.
I found it amusing that Carrillo under HP Ratings says essentially nothing
http://www.cp-carrillo.com/Tech/RodTech/tabid/76/Default.aspx#hpr
Looks like ALL Carrillo Rods are Forged and then Machined they are not simply a chunk of billet steel they CNC
"All Carrillo connecting rods are manufactured from an oversized forging resulting in the proper grainflow as well as the surface removal of any potential inclusions or surface conversions generated by the forging process. "
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BB -
That rod fatigue failure has been going on for a long time. A tiny crack probably started during the first couple of hard runs - back in 2009. As the crack got bigger it grew faster, until that fateful run at DW2014.
Fatigue happens relatively slowly, so you can catch it with regular inspections. Magnaflux exposes even micro-cracks invisible to the naked eye, as long as they are near the surface. You put a bright-colored magnetic powder on the surface and then subject the part to a strong magnetic field. Even the tiniest cracks will disrupt the magnetic field, causing the powder to line up along the cracks. This effectively "paints" the cracks (even if they are below the surface a little bit) so you can see them. A good operator can catch a fatigue failure happening early on, before there is much danger of failure. Yes, you could see the little cracks on a paper clip after the first bend.
Unfortunately, such non-destructive inspections are not foolproof. The little flaw in the titanium compressor disc on that Sioux City United DC-10 went undetected for years, despite regular inspections.
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Bill Just got a chuckle thinking about the good old Sat Night Live/Mr Bill and Toonces the Cat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywQEcv22Mdk
thanks for your perspective... It never dawned on me Jay's rod failure could go way back that far, but it makes sense ...I was just nervous about stating the "torn" up rod could have allowed new noises and Jay could have been correct with the motor concerns on bothersome noises. The fact someone else told him the sound was header leaks kind of hurts. I've bent the hell out of a few combination wrenches to get the correct angle and hammered them right back - Forged steel is tough, to think a high perf rod could just snap cleanly like a pretzel is very odd - I knew better.
I kind of disagree on a paper clip indicating via x-ray and Mag testing a simple bend/ they are plated and formed (I believe) certainly not plated after forming -- think about a valve spring that may go through hundreds of millions of cycles. One of my customers makes industrial steel cable and I've witnessed the testing/ destructive testing -- wonder how often they test rods?
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Certainly a temporary wrench in the works, but it will give you nothing but experience. And as they say, if you're building enough engines, you will have an issue from time to time. It's statistics...
Give David Crower a call personally and shoot him the photos...
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The question lies in the fact that - absent a failure initiation point - the rod would have gone many, many more cycles before failure from simple fatigue. Once you have a stress point - be it a notch or an inclusion in the forging - you have a place that bending/stretching forces tend to focus upon, concentrating loads and accumulating fatigue stress in a single small and vulnerable area.
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I agree completely, after seeing the tracks, my guess is that rod had structural issues. Do you have your notes on big end side clearance, bore concentricity and/or do you check to see if the they straight before you assemble? Not that you missed something, that anyone else would have seen, but it'd be interesting if that one had any twist in it from earlier damage.
To the NDI guys, is there any cost effective test for the remaining rods that would allow Jay to trust them? You mentioned mag and x-ray, does that tell him enough? Needless to say, in an engine that costs that much and makes that much power, even a new set of 8 should be checked
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I did check all that stuff on assembly, Ross, but didn't keep any notes on it. If there was something a little odd, though, I think I would have caught it...
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Re: Using remaining rods.
Knowing Jay, he's probably going to set those aside. I think after a good non destructive inspection, and maybe a dose of shot peening, they'd be great for a less demanding future project.
JMO, of course!
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Bill, that is exactly what I plan to do. Those rods ought to be fine for a run-of-the-mill 800 HP engine ;D
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Re: Using remaining rods.
Knowing Jay, he's probably going to set those aside. I think after a good non destructive inspection, and maybe a dose of shot peening, they'd be great for a less demanding future project.
JMO, of course!
Me too, matter of fact I'd change brands and go overkill but I am pretty conservative. It helps at high altitude in unfriendly places :)
But for me they wouldn't go in anything until I had some sort of definitive-ish test, same lot, same metal, who knows if one of the others isn't a day behind it or 30 days behind it at 600 hp?
So still the begs the question, is there anything that anyone can do? I know they do a lot of fancy NDI to our airplane to check compressor blades, even fuselage structural stuff. Is there just x-ray and mag for these or is there something else? Also would x-ray show a little defect as a "occlusion" or spec with a different density?
Don't take this wrong, but less concerned about that rod than the science behind potential NDI. Work is keeping me from building a turbo build for at least a year, but potentially planning something with less rotating and reciprocating weight than this build but more power. So this is a pretty good "thinking time" while the AF has me separated from the fun
I'll go tactical geek on you and throw out a response I give to my guys for crisis management.
- Initial conservative response or heroism (heroism doesn't apply here....but it could in a real crisis, can't always be conservative)
- Gather information
- Turn to the offense
Step 1 - Bring the car home
Step 2 - Figure out options, testing and backup plans
Step 3 - Jay comes back out with even bigger guns :)
So Jay is in step 2, and I am trying to avoid the entire checklist by bootlegging :)
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What's the bore/stroke on it.. i'm pretty sure those are the rods in my engine but she's only a 511...
maybe i shouldn't plan on making it into a blower/turbo motor.....
:(
Are those the maxi light or the regular billet?
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Bore/Stroke is 4.47/4.6, and those are the regular billet rods, not the maxi-light rods.
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"...even bigger gun..."
600+ CID High Deck! :) :) :)
KS
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Bill, that is exactly what I plan to do. Those rods ought to be fine for a run-of-the-mill 800 HP engine ;D
Nothin' quite like a "run-of-the-mill" 800 HP engine ;D- I'd sign up for one of those if they came at run-of-the-mill cost :P
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Just my .02C but I'm looking forward to seeing what Crower says about the rods. The FE folks in my circles swear by Crower and have had no issues at some big power levels. I am a complete rookie and haven't earned my stripes yet, but I'd still run Crower without hesitation. However, it now seems like a good idea to hedge your bet with any rods and x-ray/maganuflux.
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Bore/Stroke is 4.47/4.6, and those are the regular billet rods, not the maxi-light rods.
crap... think i'll be ok/better keeping the rod angle a little more vertical and slinging a smaller piston?
I'm kinda pissed i went with crower over oliver cause they were making everything else... this motor was built with the ultimate goal of being a 6500-7500rpm motor under 20psi on e85 from day 1. >:(
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I think the rod failure was just a fluke, albeit a very bad one. There are lots of guys consistently running those rods for years on end making 1000+hp. BUT, having said that, I would also be hesitant to use them again in Jays case. Once you get bit it's hard to overcome that feeling. It would be interesting to do a careful center-to-center measurement on the remaining rods to see where they are.
And the problem with second guessing another set of rods and going the full X-ray treatment is where do you stop? Crank, pistons and pins, rockers, valves, cams, retainers, even blocks themselves....they can all cause a catastrophic failure due to a not-visible-to-the-naked-eye minute flaw. If you don't overcome that fear the next engine will end up costing you thousands more and you'll still be afraid to run it hard.
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You think a rod is pretty sturdy and not subject to flexing. I was in a local performance machine shop that had a factory stock road racing Viper motor in for rebuild as it was tired - the builder was surprised to find the cast oil main that resides in the center of the alum block under the lifter galley had a series of "machined" notches where the rods had been flexing their stuff and contacted the casting.
I enjoy reading about shot peening and have a feeling anyone strolling into a facility to have their rods x-ray'd may find themselves in the same sort of pricing mess that they'd find themselves walking into a shot peening shop. There's literally thousands of shot peening "mix" combinations that range from speed of shot, type of shot, mass of shot, duration of shot etc.. When Joe Average walks into a shop and asks to have a mystery set of rods shot peened, the reality is the guys all laughing like the "you want it when?" comic sign comes into play. There is enormous skill involved just to determine what the right combination of the above "mix" is to properly shot peen the rods. (this in itself is a service that takes the time of a knowledgeable individual = $$$) The fact that these are used rods further puts the peener at a disadvantage because he does not know what peening was previously done to the rods, heat treating and for that matter even the alloy. I'm not even going into they use strips placed beside the product being peened to determine the degree of shot peening received and nor did I mention you get surface hardness and depths of hardness. The problem is IF the shot peening is not correct the surface can be to hard and more subject to a failure point starting.
I'd think strolling into an X-ray lab and asking for rods to be x-ray'd may involve all sorts of variations and complications ...If you had 20 sets of rods and planned to bring in more each month that's one thing BUT I have a feeling you could end up with a bill that is right there with the cost of a set of new rods just walking in with eight rods to x-ray.
I find it fascinating that the "defective" rod in Jay's motor likely saw 10,20,30 or even a whole lot more max rpm/max power cycles while it was literally hanging on by a thread (a forged steel thread but just the same). That thread was progressively getting smaller and weaker as that inclusion opened up/was sand beaching itself.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_corrosion_cracking
http://corrosion-doctors.org/Forms-SCC/scc.htm
Jay, first my condolences to you on the early end to drag week. As it has been pointed out by others on this forum and thread topic concerning the failure of the number 5 connecting rod, I would like to add a few comments for thought. Looking at the fractured end of the small end of the rod, it shows the classic crack propagating fatigue failure, no need for magnification here! The crack started on the inside edge of the beam, worked its way across the beam and into the web where cyclic loading caused failure. No doubt the crack started with a stress concentrator or riser, could have been a small nick, scratch, dent or gouge. It does not take much where a part is loaded with high stress and heat. Stress risers are easy to inspect for on a part like a connecting rod, just look for scratches, nicks etc. Also all the beam edges of the rod should be rounded, no sharp edges at all as sharp edges are a stress concentrator looking for a place to start. It would be interesting to get an elemental analysis of the alloy of the rod. It would be easy to do as only a small piece of the rod is needed (plenty of that in the windage tray :() and sent to a testing lab. Our lab here at work could do that but I'd need a job order. Maybe Crower has the alloy in their records. Why the alloy? If the chromium levels are high enough, then there is the possibility of chloride stress corrosion that lead to the rod failure, which stainless steels are very susceptible to. See the attached links. Where does it come from? Chlorinated brake cleaners are the best source for this. Check and see what's in the cans of brake cleaner if you are using them. I even doubt if the can says its nonchlorinated if it really is. The Navv deals with detrimental material control for everything used in the nuclear program, due to the use of stainless steel for the plant. Halogens (Bromide, Chloride and Fluoride), sulfur and mercury are the worst ones, we get certified leaching tests to hold the limits to 250 ppm on the halogens and 10 ppm on the hg (read low!) Just something else to think about. So don't use brake cleaner on those high dollar stainless steel rod bolts!
Courtney.
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BBC Carrillo Rods $2,700/8 includes CARR bolts that are normally a $50per rod option. This is competitive pricing on a set of common size BBC Carrillo Rods, obviously quite difficult for most to swallow but then again so is a broken rod.
http://teaguecustommarine.com/em0011/carrillo-pro-h-rods-417.html
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I agree with the previous comments that Crower makes an excellent rod. My 1200 HP supercharged FE ran the same Crower rods as the SOHC engine and has never had a problem, and that engine saw even more use than the SOHC has. So I think I just got a bad rod, and I'm inclined to go back to Crower for the next set. Maybe do a custom version with a thicker beam or something...
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You could spend more and not get a better rod than the Crowers I think. Just got a bad one that slipped through QC. The beam design seems to be a popular one, so it must be a strong one. Heck even the mass produced oriental stuff looks very similar.
http://www.racingpartsmaximum.com/sae4340ibeam-3.html
I'm rethinking my choice of Scat 6.7 I beams now. I thought I would be safe using them and going with the ARP 2000 bolt upgrade since I've seen so many BBC rods with the big end stretched or broke. With this length of rod I don't think the big end is the weak point now. I think it's the beam if the metallurgy isn't spot on.
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Given the volume of rods I sell from numerous manufacturers I have seen lots of mid-beam failed factory rods. And only one mid-beam failed aftermarket rod - this one. I really think that beam failures are normally from accumulated cycles over 30-40 years of service - or a material defect. Jay's issue is the latter - clearly a flaw in the part that is not likely to be repeated.
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Given the situation I wonder if Crower would do a bit of extra QC (Xray, Magnaflux and whatever else they can do) free of charge on a discounted replacement set?
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If it was my stuff that tanked I would.
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Sorry that happened Jay, but I think you were pushing the limits of those rods maybe a little too far too many times. I'm not trying to talk bad about what anyone else has said, but that is my opinion. As was mentioned before, you're not far from the "limits" of those rods when they were new. 5 years later, many hard runs, pretty heavy piston, chit happens I'm afraid. Be nice if crower would do a little stronger rod for you. I'm not as much of an oliver fan as I used to be either, so don't know if I'd go that way.
Good luck Jay. This is all my opinion of course. ;)
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Some comments:
Since the cylinder bores are offset from stock, would the BBC rod offset help center the beam on the piston pin?
Any chance of carefully measuring the rest of the rods to see if they are slightly bent or stretched?
I've tried to do some research on cryogenic treatments and basically found the old school dry ice treatment is supposed to double the life while a modern profession treatment will double that again. But I could find no info if it helps on used parts.
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Really if you want to push past parts availability of a engine that was never meant to handle 1000 HP, something is gonna snap. You can build a 385 to go much further than an FE just by design, for an FE you would need a custom billet true 4bolt block with splayed caps and thicker deck. Aluminum billet 7005 aluminum rods, billet forged custom pistons lightened with TI pins. And top it off with a custom billet cromo crank. Then you add the SOHC stuff with monster triple springs and titanium retainers, spring seats, keepers and valves. After all that fill the block and you could get to play with the big boys. Hemi, 385 and 572 Chevys are top dog due to the fact that parts are available to compete at that level.
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Really if you want to push past parts availability of a engine that was never meant to handle 1000 HP, something is gonna snap. You can build a 385 to go much further than an FE just by design, for an FE you would need a custom billet true 4bolt block with splayed caps and thicker deck. Aluminum billet 7005 aluminum rods, billet forged custom pistons lightened with TI pins. And top it off with a custom billet cromo crank. Then you add the SOHC stuff with monster triple springs and titanium retainers, spring seats, keepers and valves. After all that fill the block and you could get to play with the big boys. Hemi, 385 and 572 Chevys are top dog due to the fact that parts are available to compete at that level.
Umm, you might want to tell that to people like Ray Paquet who just won his class in Super Stock at Indy just recently. Or Robert Pond, Dallas Kelly, the Johnsons, John Calvert or a host of others that have been pretty consistently beating those Hemi and BB Chevy guys throughout this and previous years. There are lots of FEs out there running with (and beating) the "big boys".
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Really if you want to push past parts availability of a engine that was never meant to handle 1000 HP, something is gonna snap. You can build a 385 to go much further than an FE just by design, for an FE you would need a custom billet true 4bolt block with splayed caps and thicker deck. Aluminum billet 7005 aluminum rods, billet forged custom pistons lightened with TI pins. And top it off with a custom billet cromo crank. Then you add the SOHC stuff with monster triple springs and titanium retainers, spring seats, keepers and valves. After all that fill the block and you could get to play with the big boys. Hemi, 385 and 572 Chevys are top dog due to the fact that parts are available to compete at that level.
Splay bolting is an attempt to create the effect of cross bolting.
Jay's rod broke because of a bad pour. It broke in two places. One place well hammering against aluminum.
The FE is NOT and I repeat NOT a true big block. It is a medium block that can punch above it's weight.
The bore spacing is to close to compete at 9 litres plus.
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Uh, Jon... Jay's engine was using the good parts. Nobody runs aluminum rods for the purpose Jay was. Not only would they not likely fit with that stroke but on a 1200 mile street drive you might be leaving some along the road or at one of the tracks. Same deal with a billet block without water jackets, you'd have problems. Even Larry Larson's 3000hp ProLine engine was using a cast block.
http://www.brodix.com/blocks-list/5-0-aluminum-blocks
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Welding is a comparatively easy deal in Detroit.
You just need to bring your checkbook.
Marcella would weld that one up in a minute...in his sleep.
Razor could do it underwater...blindfolded.
What does welding a typically windowed block run in terms of cost?
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I'll let you know what it cost me when I get the bill. By the way, the guy who has the block is going to fix it with a combination of welding and some specialty fasteners called "Lock 'n Stitch" pins. This will minimize any warpage to the main saddle, hopefully eliminating the need for line boring the block after the repair. I've actually used those lock n stitch pins before to fix a factory SOHC head that had some cracks in it, and they worked really well...
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Do let me know. I only ask because I have a friend with a shelby aluminum block that had #3 and #7 rods decide to run away out the side pan rails. Only reason I've not picked it up yet is because I was unsure after paying to have it fixed I'd be any money ahead of buying a new block.
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Jay,
would be good to know more about the Lock n Stitch pins! A few photos would be educational...
Thanks,
Bruce
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Bruce, see their web site below:
http://www.locknstitch.com/
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That repair works great if you can get to the whole crack. I have used it a few of times on cast iron, never on alum though, usually just as easy to have alum welded. Admittedly I have only needed to repair alum 4 cyl heads though not a scattered SOHC!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq0wfU4ZaKk
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I may have missed this; were the rods magged before each subsequent build? That is a standard procedure with the builds I do with Dougan's. That process caught radial cracks in a billet Scat crank, which lead to the Bryant that is in the 598" now. The same process led us to upgrade to Oliver's when we were shooting for more than 900 for a Drag Week capable rotating assembly.
We learn more very year and sometimes it is the hard way. Compared to the fast guys, those of us running the small tire N/A classes toil in obscurity, but its still a challenge.
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Impossible to say on cost because the cracks can be anywhere from minor to Frankenstein. But welder fees of a few hundred are just the start. You have to assume that you are going to remachine everything. Its a thousand dollar deal any way you shake it - but considering the block costs five or six times that much...
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Bill, the rods were not magged between builds. Obviously, in hindsight I should have done that. The rods were purchased in 2008, and were in a few different iterations of the engine, the first of which used Dove heads (that leaked) and the first pass on the T&D rockers (which did not have sufficient clearance between the rocker bushing and shaft, and seized on the shafts). Second iteration went to the high port heads and properly sized bushings in the T&Ds, and that was the engine that made 930 HP and won the Modified class at Drag Week in 2009. Third iteration was an upgrade to the distributorless ignition system to make a little more power, but then the engine leaked water into the oil during DW11. Back apart it came, to the current version, which tossed the rod this year.
A quick update on this situation: I sent the broken rod pieces to Blair Patrick (who I bought them from), and they are now on the way to Crower. Blair talked to Crower, and first cut from them was that a break in the beam of one of their rods is very, very rare, and that the rods I had should have been able to handle 1500 HP, even though they are rated at 1000 HP. I'd consider an upgrade to Olivers but I don't think I've got room in the crankcase for them; their outside profile is significantly bigger than the Crowers, and I'm already notching everywhere to clear the big stroke.
And just to echo Barry's comments, the block repair is going slowly, and is going to require new machining pretty much everywhere. It looks like a combination of welding and those lock n stitch pins is going to be the solution.
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I do not think an Oliver would be an upgrade from a Crower part...
Now if you could get a Dyers or other 300M part in the correct size...
R&R will make you a billet steel rod in any dimension, but bring your checkbook & be prepared....
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Jay, here's another option on rods. I toured the facility on our first trip to Engine Master's. It is all done by one guy and he does the design work and machine work on these rods all in his own little machine shop. It reminds me of your place in some ways. These aren't cheap but they aren't as bad as you would think either. Be sure to look at his list of customers, these are not low end.
http://spmtitaniumrods.com/
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Crower has a Ti rod selection also.
Out of my price though. ::)
http://www.crower.com/connecting-rods/titanium/stroker-titanium-crowerods-bb-chevy-5-000-quot-to-8-250-quot-c-to-c-6049.html
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Wow! $6,740 for eight or $843 per rod. At that price one could buy 5-6 sets of Crower or Oliver rods I bet. Speed still costs $...how fast do you want to go ;)
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For 99.9% of us an iron based rod is more than adequate.
The Titanium rod does have a life cycle also which is probably shorter than the iron rod.
For someone watching this thread and thinking I need a really good set of rods for my really expensive FE.
Don't be lead away for the Crower iron rod. It is still a great rod and will do yeoman's duty.
Jay's was just an miss alignment between the moon and honey jar which caused a reverse rotation of the pot on the back burner.
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I was kidding at Ti rods do have a place. Yet, I'm still amazed at the high price in today's world and thought a TI rod set would be a lot less expensive. Go figure!
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I always build one level past the expected stress level on anything. I do not like surprises, if it means spending $8,000 to protect a $50,000 investment and it would up the integrity from marginal to safe it is money well spent. I would always opt to be safe rather than sorry. Once you go over 1000 HP you are playing a different game and upgraded parts are a necessity to perform reliably at that level JMHO.
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The Ti rods I suggested were $3200 a set when I asked about them.
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Has there been any updated response from Crower to this rod failure? I'm reading this late but still curious.
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All Crower would say is that the rod failure should have never happened; "We very rarely see beam failures in our rods". They refused to take any responsibility for it, or offer me any kind of a discount on a new set. Not that I was expecting any, because the rods were 5 or 6 years old, and of course they are a racing part. But I sent them both ends of the rod for analysis, and they couldn't find anything wrong that would have caused the failure. Nearly everybody else I've talked to, including a metallurgical engineer I know, said that the failure was typical of a material defect in the rod.
I still like the Crower rods for a variety of reasons, but I used to just trust that they were good and put them in the engine without checking them. No more. In fact, the new set in my rebuilt SOHC short block has already been magged...
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Thanks,
30 years ago when you called Crower with a question, you talked with Mr. Crower (I forget his first name) or he called you back. So whenever we needed something we went to Crower, we didn't know about metallurgy but we knew he would talk with us kids that were trying to learn, he made this 18 year old get a smaller cam.
Big company today.
So, Im replying to this to ask why stay with Crower, when there are several other good rod makers?
Mark
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MB, Mr. Crower's first name is Bruce. Ask me why I remember that!
Bruce
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So, Im replying to this to ask why stay with Crower, when there are several other good rod makers?
Mark
I stayed with Crower because the overall shape of their rod works inside the engine. The 4.6" stroke in this engine makes internal clearances something of an issue, especially at the bottom of the cylinder sleeves. Crower's billet rods have what they call "stroker clearance" ground right into the rod. As a result I knew they would fit in the engine without a bunch of additional clearancing and grinding. They also agreed to upgrade the rods a little for me, adding some beam thickness and about 50 grams of weight.
I briefly considered going with Oliver instead, but when I talked to those guys at the PRI show they weren't all that helpful/interested in my application. And the rods they showed me at the show would have needed a whole bunch of grinding/clearancing to fit the engine. I also thought about going with Carillo, and since the pistons are CP, that would have been one less vendor to deal with (Carillo and CP are part of the same company), but in the end I decided to go with the path of least resistance, which was another set of Crowers. I've got Crower rods in my supercharged FE, which makes 1200 HP, and haven't had any issues, so I still have a high opinion of their parts; I think I just "lucked out" and got a bad one. Go figure... :(
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I briefly considered going with Oliver instead, but when I talked to those guys at the PRI show they weren't all that helpful/interested in my application. And the rods they showed me at the show would have needed a whole bunch of grinding/clearancing to fit the engine. I also thought about going with Carillo, and since the pistons are CP, that would have been one less vendor to deal with (Carillo and CP are part of the same company), but in the end I decided to go with the path of least resistance, which was another set of Crowers. I've got Crower rods in my supercharged FE, which makes 1200 HP, and haven't had any issues, so I still have a high opinion of their parts; I think I just "lucked out" and got a bad one. Go figure... :(
While I was at PRI, I stopped and asked a few vendors about parts and most just replied, What's an FE? I just said nevermind and walked away. It was good to finally meet you and Barry, Jay. Loved all the parts on display, like a kid in a candy store!
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Crower Rods seem to be pretty beefy. I have Eagle Forged "H" beams. I was told they are pretty strong, but when you look at them, they don't look as sturdy as those Crowers Jay is using. :0)
On Edit:
I went back to the company I got my Forged H Beam Eagle Rods from. And with the upgraded ARP bolts I installed, it says I am good for up to 1400 HP. I guess looks can be deceiving. ;)
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Being local to me I've had the chance to walk though Crowers operation and it is impressive to say the least. They do everything in one building now, from cranks to rod to valve train and cams. They also do it all in house, not subbed out like some other companies like Comp Cams. They are top notch and I'm sure you'll be good with this set.
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What would it cost, on average, to have the whole deal magnafluxed? I'm talking block, heads, pistons, rods and crank. I'd figure that on a SOHC, you're spending at least $40k for a new one. Seems like it would be a smart idea to have it all tested if it only cost like $2k.
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I probably missed this, but what did you change to take this engine from 577 out to 585?
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Went from 4.470 to 4.500 bore.
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MB, Mr. Crower's first name is Bruce. Ask me why I remember that!
Bruce
I think its actually Harold, but he preferred his middle name Bruce.
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I have had to disassemble two baby cammers in the recent past.
I thought about this as I was taking them down. And studied the disassembly very close.
#5 is taking a lot of punishment.
These are around 100,000 mile 4.6'ers.
Coincidence, who knows?
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That is interesting, Howie, but its hard to tie my failures and your observations together. We will see what I find when I tear down this year's engine...
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Uh, Jon... Jay's engine was using the good parts. Nobody runs aluminum rods for the purpose Jay was. Not only would they not likely fit with that stroke but on a 1200 mile street drive you might be leaving some along the road or at one of the tracks. Same deal with a billet block without water jackets, you'd have problems. Even Larry Larson's 3000hp ProLine engine was using a cast block.
http://www.brodix.com/blocks-list/5-0-aluminum-blocks
@TomP FWIW, I ran BME's in an 800 hp street/strip brand x motor and was VERY happy with them. For one thing, they are much easier on the rest of the bottom end, and cured issues I was having with cap fretting. Tom, you probably saw the car in question make many passes, and it was always driven home from the track, unlike virtually every one of the "street cars" ::) it was competing against. Probably shouldnt even post this, and Ill ignore all the "you don't know what you are talking about, it says on the internet you cant do that" that will surely follow this post. Tom, next time we meet face to face, feel free to ask me about it.