My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!

[cobracammer]

Sorry, wifi went down while typing last night  LOL

[My427stang]

Tested the ground again tonight.  Used a volt meter ( not ideal, i know ) but I get 12.19 volts steady using the starter casing itself for the ground lead and the 12V constant lead as the power.  I am thinking that because it shows 12.19 volts steady using the starter itself for the ground, that its properly grounded?  I got it back up in the air on Jackstands last night and will try and Jump the signal terminal on the starter with a screw driver tonight.  I want to try all possible ways to test before I remove because its a HUGE pain to remove.  Is there another way to test the ground connection ( other than how I explained above?  My thought is if I jump it with a screw driver and it doesnt kick on, it doesnt mean its bad.... Could still be a bad ground.....
Thoughts?

Jump the terminals first, the volt meter won't tell you if any connection can handle the amperage required positive or negative.  Troubleshoot the next step after you have info

All you need to do is lay a screwdriver from the battery cable at the starter to the trigger post on the starter to bridge those two, it'll either crank or it wont, don't overthink it.

If you can't fit a screwdriver, use a remote starter button or just a wire. 

You are correct though,  if it DOESNT go, take a set of jumper cables and connect one clamp to the starter and the other to a good ground and try the screwdriver again. At that point, you will prove whether it is a ground issue. 

I really doubt that it is though, the starter doesn't need it's own ground, it's bolted to the block plate and if the neg cable is bolted to the block, that should be a good ground

BTW I challenge you to please do this before it hits 100 pages

[cobracammer]

Thanks Ross.  I was hoping to be done somewhere around 30 pages  LOL  Long overdue

[cobracammer]

Ok jumped the 2 terminals on the starter with a screwdriver..... And the starter works and sounds strong!   So now what?  Lol

[mike7570]

keep working back up the from the starter. Your not getting 12v signal to the starter.
Might be easy, neutral safety, clutch engage etc. (you could bypass with a temporary wire from ignition switch)

[cobracammer]

Really weird, but when I tested the signal wire with volt meter ( and wife trying to start car) it was showing 12 volts. Whn she let go of the clutch and key, it went back to almost 0.  How is that even possible?

[jmlay]

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying the post should be 0Vdc with the clutch not depressed an the key in the off or run position.

[cobracammer]

Im prob not making sense at this point  LOL.  What I was trying to say is that when tested, i thought I was getting 12 volts to the starter signal wire when clutch was pressed in and key was turned.

On a side note, i went back out tothe garage to do a few tests.

Started withthe starter safety switch on the clutch pedal.  Online, it says test this with Ohms.  I disconnected it from the plug, and tested.  You get 00.00 when you press the plunger on the switch in, and when you let it go, you get "OL".  So switch works.  Then on to testing the other end of the pigtail that has 2 power wires..... NaDa!  No voltage at all!  Found the issue!  So then my thoughts went to the yellow wire dangling under the passanger side foot area.  It tests 12.12v constant power.  My guess is that yellow wire feeds the starter safety switch, but I still can not find where it disconnected from.  Also, its running from drivers side toward passanger side, so its not as though ( so coming from under the steering column.  There are a few other wires bundled with it, and they are running behind the kick panel fuse box on passanger side

[cobracammer]

OK called a "Clifford Matrix 1" Alarm installation specialist.  Explained what was happening, and he was a bit confused as to why the yellow wire that runs from the ignition under the dash over to the kick panel on the passenger side would be showing 12.12 V.  He thought if anything, Power would be coming from that area, not going to it.  He suggested pulling the brain of the alarm out of the car (which should put the ignition wires back to normal).  I wasn't sure the alarm is even getting power because the LED's are not blinking.  I told him I am turning the key and I head clicking under the steering column and also behind the radio.  He said it sounded like the starter kill relays are getting signal (power) so he suggested I pull the brain.

I also got a wire diagram for a 2005 Mustang GT from the internet.  The kick panel fuse box that the yellow wire is hanging in front of has a fuse (F-21) which is the starter relay fuse....  from that fuse, it goes to the Bussed electrical center (under the hood on passenger wheel well) to a starter relay, and then to the signal wire terminal on the starter.

I am going to start by the obvious checking of the fuse in the kick panel (10A fuse on slot F21).  if that's good, I will try and figure out how to test the relay in the bussed electrical box under the hood.  Obviously it still bothers me that there is a loose wire hanging that has constant voltage running to it......  but as stated previously by you all,  we have to start somewhere and find the "bug"

[cobracammer]

OK, still at work but had to post this (and I really hope it is not this simple....... wait, yes I do).  Since this is a newer car (2005), it has the lovely OEM security system (in addition to an aftermarket Clifford Alarm).  This can be found when you have a little blinking indicator light on the dash near the speedometer which looks like a red car with a red padlock overlay.  I have this on the Saleen.  When I get in the car (door open or shut), the security light still blinks.  This built in "device" stops the car from being started.  When you use the cars key, it is supposed to know to de-active, but it says that sometimes the cars computer gets confused (?).  They suggest exiting the vehicle and lock all of the doors with the windows rolled up.  Then wait 2 minutes...  next unlock just the drivers side door with the key which should reset the system..... then try restarting the engine...

I am going to weep all unmanly like if this is the issue.... fingers crossed (Which I think should have been the original name of this forum post)

[machoneman]

Hope it works. Also why many rip out mucho OEM wiring and misc. non-essential systems when building a real runner. KISS principle in action.

[jayb]

OK, still at work but had to post this (and I really hope it is not this simple....... wait, yes I do).  Since this is a newer car (2005), it has the lovely OEM security system (in addition to an aftermarket Clifford Alarm).  This can be found when you have a little blinking indicator light on the dash near the speedometer which looks like a red car with a red padlock overlay.  I have this on the Saleen.  When I get in the car (door open or shut), the security light still blinks.  This built in "device" stops the car from being started.  When you use the cars key, it is supposed to know to de-active, but it says that sometimes the cars computer gets confused (?).  They suggest exiting the vehicle and lock all of the doors with the windows rolled up.  Then wait 2 minutes...  next unlock just the drivers side door with the key which should reset the system..... then try restarting the engine...

I am going to weep all unmanly like if this is the issue.... fingers crossed (Which I think should have been the original name of this forum post)

My 2005 F-150 had a system like that.  After I gave it to my daughter, she locked it one day with the key fob, then opened it the next day with the key.  Wouldn't start.  She finally figured out that she had to unlock it with the key fob before the truck would start again.

Later, when she left the dome light on and drained the battery ( ), we had the same issue after it was charged back up again.  Had to lock and unlock the doors before it would start.

Wouldn't surprise me if something like that is your issue...

[cobracammer]

Thanks Jay.  The car has a chip in the key (from what I read), but it doesn't have a fob (that I know of). I am so dying to know if this is my issue.

Also, I realized that I tested the wires that plug into the Starter safety switch  (as well as testing the switch).  After reading a few more things, I realized that the wires wont show any voltage until you turn the key.  I was testing the wires no key in the ignition.  I was finding it very difficult to holt the volt meter leads on the blades of the pig tail.  It would have been impossible to do by myself while turning the key.  I am going to try the passive theft system reset thing.  If that doesn't work, I am going to retest the starter switch wires on the clutch pedal again while the wife turns the key.

Thanks again  :0)

[cobracammer]

Ok.  Downloaded the cars manual.  In the manual, it describes the different states of the OEM passive alarm.  Each is dictated by how the car/lock dash light behaves.  Started with #1 in the manual.... Put key in the ignition and turn to the "on" location.  The car/lock symbol on the dash should stay solid for 3 seconds and the shut off if working properly....  And when I did this, it is indeed working properly.  So no need to trouble shoot further.  Next I went on to the clifford car alarm.  Still not working, so i tried screwing around with the key fob for it for a while, changing the battery, etc....  Nothing.  Then I remembered I had a back up remote fob in the house.  Got it out, put in a fresh battery, and hit the lock and then unlock buttons.... Voila, alarm system sprang to life!  Led on dash now working, car locks and unlocks with the fob, but still no start.

Wanted to try one more thing...  Got in the car and pressed in the clutch, tried to start and got the usual.  A click of some relays, but no dimming of any lights and no start.  Then I wanted to try starting it without pressing in the clutch.... And the same.  No dimming, relays click and no start.

Also checked the fuse in the kick panel fuse box ( f21 starter relay -10 amp fuse) and its not blown.  I believe it then leads to the bussed electrical center under the hood where there is a relay for the starter.  Not sure how to check if its bad, but i pulled it out, all 4 tabs on tye bottom look fine and it doesnt smell burnt.

Lastly, I pulled the clutch starter switch and using the volt meter, tried to see what happened when I turned the key or tried to start.  In the on position, it registered a little, but no where near 12 volts.  Then still holding the volt meter to the pigtail, I had my wife turn the key like she was trying to start the car.  It jumped all over the place and registered "OL" a few times.  I am not really 100% sure what I am looking for on this one.  Something happens when I turn the key, so is this "Signal"?  I have been trying to figure out how the system works in general since I am 100% sure the battery is good (TESTED) and I am 100% sure the starter works (TESTED). 

So where we are at now is....

Battery good
Starter good
Smart junction box in the kick panel- Starter relay fuse is good (not blown)
Some sort of action happening when I turn the key in the wires that feed the Clutch starter switch (Although I am not sure exactly what to look for when testing it)

Outstanding issues...

There is a relay (not the ones I hear clicking in the cabin of the car) in the bussed electrical center fuse box under the hood....  How do I test the starter relay?
What feeds what in the car?  Where does this signal that goes through the pigtail on the clutch starter switch come from?  I am not really clear on the flow.  would make sense to start where I know something works and work my way backwards in the system, but not sure what the trail backwards looks like.
I tested the clutch starter switch with it disconnected the other day and get "OL" when testing for ohms with the switch NOT depressed and 00.00 Volts when it is plunged in.  As per online, this appears good, but I could be wrong?

[cobracammer]

Ok made this based off of research on a ford manual and tech forum.  Not bad right?  LOL

 

So a little easier to plan an "attack" on this system when you can visualize the flow.  Again, Battery is good and Starter is good.  I pulled the fuse in the SJB (Smart Junction box) and it is not blown.  Seeing this diagram now, I think I want to pull the fuse and test both sides of that circuit with the volt meter.  It looks like it will only receive voltage when the key is turned to the "Start" position.  This will be my next step (Not to be nerdy, but I even numbered the steps on the diagram  LOL).

Assuming Voltage shows on the meter when I turn the key, I can pop the fuse back in and know that we are good up to that point.  From there, I want to make sure that the voltage from the SJB is making it to the clutch pedal switch (Step 2).  In thinking about it, when I stuck the leads into the pigtail to test it and turned the key, it wasn't completing the circuit right?  Since the wire leading out of the clutch pedal switch goes to the relay, the volt meter was getting voltage in from the SJB, but did not have a complete ground (since the relay didn't close?)  I am not sure if using a volt meter would have the same physical properties as using a jumper wire?  Would the volt meter just read what's there? or would it complete the circuit (like a jumper wire?)