My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!

[cobracammer]

OK, here is where we are now.

1st...  obviously, the car will not crank.  Battery tested good with Volt meter.  All other accessories (aside from the alarm system) work!

2nd...  As above, the alarm does not work.  Unsure why, as the only item I disconnected from the original setup was the Amp previous owner put in trunk.

3rd...  Even with the Alarm not working, I crawled under the car and tested the Feed to the starter.  12V Constant is good, Ground is good, and most importantly, the signal wire to the starter shows 12+ volts when the key is turned and clutch pushed down.

This is where I am getting confused.  If I am getting a 12+Volt signal from the ignition when the key is turned, then the Alarm (Working or not) is obviously not blocking the signal.

The starter in the car is the one that was working when I pulled the engine out to sent to Jay.  The thought would be that it would still be in working order since it just sat in a box until this re-install.

Is there anyway to test this starter while its still installed?  Maybe cross the 12V constant to the signal terminal with a screwdriver?  Honestly guys, this is killing me now that this car is fully assembled and ready......  and I just cant get the starter to work  LOL

Any brainstorming at all would be awesome......  or anyone in the Jacksonville FL area?  LOL

[jayb]

You're not getting a click or anything when the key is turned?  I'm not familiar with the MSD starters; is it possible you are missing a jumper wire between two posts on the starter or something like that?  I assume that the solenoid is on the starter itself?

If you have 12V to the main lug, and 12V to the proper terminal of the solenoid when you turn the key, and you aren't getting any action at all, its got to be the starter.  It is not unheard of for a piece of electronic gear to go bad just sitting there...

[cobracammer]

Thanks Jay.  Yes, When I turn the key, I get a click......  but not from the starter itself.  There is something behind the radio (behind the dash) that clicks once.  The starter itself does not make any noise at all.

My first thought is that there was a starter kills switch (relay) attached to the alarm system and since the alarm has been disabled (by accident apparently), maybe that was the issue?  But then when I tested the starter the other day, the alarm was still not working and I was getting the correct voltage to the constant and the signal wire.....

If it is the starter, this would be the 2nd MSD starter to go on me and I haven't even gotten the car running  LOL  I would be then purchasing my 3rd Starter to replace.  Yikes.

Before I do that, I am going to try and troubleshoot the Alarm system.  Maybe if I can restore power, it will somehow remedy my situation?  It is a fact that when the starter worked the last time, the alarm was in working order.  Just not sure how it would be stopping it if I am getting signal.

**Also, correct.  The MSD starter has the solenoid mounted on the starter.  There is a 12V constant, and a 12V signal wire, and the starter itself is the ground (so I have to grounded with a custom battery cable to the K member- which was my issue the first time around)

Thank you kindly  :0)

[My427stang]

General info:

There has to be a battery cable hooked to the large post, and on that large post is generally a feed to the interior.

When you turn the key, the feed from the interior send 12V to a trigger wire, that in turn engages the solenoid, which engages the starter.  A solenoid (and starter) needs to be grounded for that to work. 

Sometimes, starters have a trigger wire and a "cold start" ignition wire, if you had those reversed, or on the wrong lug, it would not engage

But, if you have 12V to the trigger (usually labeled S) when turning the key AND you have a good ground, if the starter doesn't do anything, it's a bad starter (or solenoid if mounted on the starter)

Sometimes tightening either the trigger wire or the batt cable feed itself can break off a connection internally, especially if the nut holding the stud was loose when you did it.

FYI, I like test lights better than volt meters in this instance. 

[cobracammer]

Thanks Ross.  Ill go back over it again.  In regards to the Signal wire, the Starter only has 1 terminal for a signal wire and the car only supplies 1 wire for the signal.  It doesn't have a separate wire for signal and trigger.  I guess in the end, I can check the connections.  If that doesn't work, Starter and work backwards from there.  Was just trying to avoid that as with this car, its not easy to get to that starter and I am forever worried about scratching up that nice ceramic coating on the headers.  LOL

[Heo]

What volt meter do you have? Meters for electronics
sometimes is to sensitiv so they show 12 v but there is
not enough amps to engage a starter or light a bulb
 try with a screwdriver on the starter if
it works

[My427stang]

What volt meter do you have? Meters for electronics
sometimes is to sensitiv so they show 12 v but there is
not enough amps to engage a starter or light a bulb
 try with a screwdriver on the starter if
it works

Heo did give you the answer from the opposite direction.  Probably better that way too

Cross the start terminal and the battery cable and see if it cranks, either by using a screwdriver, or a starter button.  If it cranks, then you know it's car problem, if it doesn't then it's a starter problem

[WConley]

+1 on the above.  Put a jumper cable directly from the battery + to the starter signal post (carefully - No shorts to the chassis!!)  That will tell you for sure if the starter is good, assuming your ground is good.

If the starter turns the engine, then you have to start troubleshooting the car wiring:

12V on a voltmeter does not necessarily equal 12V with a load.  You might try reading the voltage on that signal post when somebody is turning the key.  If it drops then there's a problem and the real fun begins.   Let us know what happens!

- Bill

[cjshaker]

+2 on the 12 volt reading. It's called Ghost Voltage, and it can fool you into thinking it's ok. It needs to be checked under a load. A bulb, like Heo suggested, may tell you, but it would be better to try it while hitting the switch. And of course make SURE there is no possible way for the car to move while doing that check!

[cobracammer]

Thanks Guys.  I will give these ideas a try and see what happens.  I will also try these suggestions with the ground "configured" a different way.  I will let you know how it goes.

[cobracammer]

Sitting at work and thinking about the above posts... and the Volt meter.... and the "Stupid" wiring....

I remembered when I used the volt meter, I tested the Signal wire (which showed 12+ volts only when my wife pushed in the clutch and tried to start the car).....  I touched the 12V constant terminal and grounded it (with the other lead) to the ground wire bolted to the bell housing where I have my cable grounded..... and it showed almost the same voltage as just testing the battery by itself.....   Its occurring to me....  The grounding cable (on the back of the bell housing) where I attached my cable....  would show a good ground because it is grounded to the K member.....  But that doesn't necessarily mean that the starter is grounded right??

I went back and tried to find the page(s) in the Forum posts when I first had an issue with the starter ....  the first time I tried turning the key.  I wasn't able to find anything I posted about how I specifically grounded the starter (the cable I made), but then it came to me.  I may have bolted the starter down with the cable touching the starter....  right now, the bolt goes through the starter and goes through the bell housing and come out the back of the bell housing about an inch.....  I then put the grounding cable on that 1 inch stick out, and then tightened it down with another nut.  There is powder coating between the grounding strap and the bell housing, but I had thought this is the way I had gotten it working before.   I may have to move the grounding strap to under the bolt head so its in contact with the starter casing.......  hopefully this is it.....

***Found it.  Pg 39 of this post:

"What I will say (and it really hit my confidence HARD)....  I went for it and turned the key with the coil plug off to hear the engine turn over.  When I turned the key, nothing.  One click......  and then when I turned the key back off, just another One Click."

And this is exactly what is happening right now.  I am going to crawl under there and change the ground location to under the head of the bolt (actually in contact with the starter case). 

[WConley]

I forgot to mention when troubleshooting a wiring harness...  You may need to order some of this:

[Tboggus]

I forgot to mention when troubleshooting a wiring harness...  You may need to order some of this:

LOL! Been a long time since I've seen any of that, especially Lucas, Prince of Darkness brand.

[cobracammer]

Tested the ground again tonight.  Used a volt meter ( not ideal, i know ) but I get 12.19 volts steady using the starter casing itself for the ground lead and the 12V constant lead as the power.  I am thinking that because it shows 12.19 volts steady using the starter itself for the ground, that its properly grounded?  I got it back up in the air on Jackstands last night and will try and Jump the signal terminal on the starter with a screw driver tonight.  I want to try all possible ways to test before I remove because its a HUGE pain to remove.  Is there another way to test the ground connection ( other than how I explained above?  My thought is if I jump it with a screw driver and it doesnt kick on, it doesnt mean its bad.... Could still be a bad ground.....
Thoughts?

[mike7570]

Tested the ground again tonight.  Used a volt meter ( not ideal, i know

AND...?    You left us hanging, must have been dinner time.