Author Topic: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!  (Read 833011 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

thatdarncat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1936
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1230 on: September 30, 2015, 03:12:50 PM »
Keep in mind Jay is running a much larger radiator, and his engine compartment in the '69 Shelby clone is more "open" with no inner fender panels, etc.  We're all interested in following this, I hope it goes well.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

cobracammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1173
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1231 on: September 30, 2015, 04:34:43 PM »
Good point on the heat issue.  I guess the more room the better.
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

Hemi Joel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1232 on: October 01, 2015, 02:04:01 PM »
I don't see tight bearings as a source of heat. More like a source of spun bearings. Take a closer look at the radiator size and air flow.

Your cammer is in good hands with Jay. :D

cobracammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1173
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1233 on: October 01, 2015, 03:15:55 PM »
Thanks Joel.  Also like Ross was saying, uncoated headers with no breathable room in the engine bay.   ;D
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 04:51:32 PM by cobracammer »
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cobracammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1173
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1234 on: October 12, 2015, 10:26:47 AM »
Alright guys.  Update.  Jay has got the cammer uncrated and up on an engine stand.  Hopefully more details to come in the near future!!! Its exciting, and honestly I wish I was there to learn from the man first hand.
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cobracammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1173
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1235 on: October 19, 2015, 10:50:15 AM »
OK Jay was able to get the engine torn down and found the issue (s).....

After pulling the distributor, intake and front cover, he ran the oil priming tool to see why I was not getting any oil to the top.  You can hear the pump is working because you can hear the oil splashing and pouring down into the pan.  After pulling off a few more "bits", Jay found the issue.....  The cam bearings.

So long story short, the 427 SOHC block I purchased from Robert Pond has special sized Cam Bearings in the block.  Unfortunately my block was missing the cam bearings when I purchased it so I called up Mr. Pond to get a set shipped to me.  After speaking with him, it was no problem at all and he sent me out a set.  I get the cam bearings and open them up.....  4 cam bearings and not 5. This is actually correct since the Robert Pond Aluminum 427 SOHC race block does not have the oil passages machines in the 5th cam journal.

Fast forward 1 year, and I take my block to get machined at the machine shop in Boynton Beach.  After the back and forth with not having to correct torque plates, and other assorted issues with machining my block, I get a call at work one day from the owner.  He is asking me why there are not 5 cam bearings.  I went over the process with him step by step explaining that I will only be using the cam journals on #1, #2, and #4  (1 and 2 are for the stub cam and #4 is where Jays plug goes so the oil feeds up to the head.  I also explained that the #3 cam bearing needs to be installed clocked so that the oil passage does not line up with the hole so that no oil comes out of that galley.  We went over this for a good 20 minutes because he was not familiar with this engine (which I would assume not a lot of them come across the table in any machine shop), but when I hung up, I was pretty sure he had it and would be ok.

1st Mistake....  When I picked up my block, I did not check to make sure all was ok.....  I realize that a few people on this forum told me to bring calipers with me and make sure all is correct before I leave, but I was so excited to get my block back (and after his explanation of how this was taking a long time because he wanted to do it right and needed all of these special tools and hones for this specific block.  I left without checking.

Unfortunately, the #3 cam bearing in the block was installed so that the oil feed holes were aligned and when you run the oil primer tool, that's the oil sound you hear.....  oil gushing out of the #3 cam journal. (As a side note, Jay hooked up an oil pressure gauge to the oil filter adapter and got 10PSI.  My Saleen has the "Dummy gauge" I believe Ross mentioned (?) where any oil pressure shows on the gauge as perfect.  I did take the advise given and purchased 3 more gauges including Oil pressure, Oil temperature, and coolant temp, but the engine konked out before their arrival.

2nd Mistake.....  Even though Mr. Pond Sent me the correct # of Cam Bearings (and the correct size), from Jays findings, they were not for the SOHC.( possible mixup at the machine shop? )  They had the one oil feed hole in the cam bearing and not the 2 (or sometimes 3) needed for the side oiler engine.  There is supposed be to be an oil hole in the bearing at the 6 Oclock position and then at 90 degrees from that (Side oiler).  Unfortunately these only had the one feed hole on the bottom (Machine shop did not catch this and I sure didn't ).  So not only was the oil pouring out of the #3 cam journal (Empty with the oil feed holes aligned) but there as no oil being fed up to either head once the oil came into the cam tunnel..... Voila! instant destruction!

OK so far Jay says that the cams are toast!  So much so, that a few of the 2 piece cam shells that allow the Cams to rotate in the heads are welded together from the heat.  Where the Rockers rid eon the cam lobes is also pretty bad so I am going to get a set of Jays Cams instead of the ones I had (Since I had a rough time with those as the Timing marks on them were like 180 degrees off!)

Right now, I am working with Jay to get the Rockers (All of them) sent off to T & D Machine Products to be completely rebuilt.  Also, I am calling Mr. Pond to get another set of Cam Bearings specific to the SOHC block sent out to Jay.

"Doctor Brown" will also be taking the heads and Block to the machine shop to make sure the valve guides are all ok as well as (Most Likely) a good cleaning.  He will also be bringing in the Crankshaft to have 0.010" machined off to ensure they are perfectly round (I was warned that the RPM Forged Cranks tend to not be perfect out of the box, but as I measured them with the dial calipers (not well, obviously), I thought they were all good. 

** As a side note, maybe the machine shop will also be able to remove the broken off bolt in the water jacket near the water pump as well as clean up the threads on the block (I may have almost stripped a few) as well as the threads on the heads where I tried to install the Helicoils....  After I did so, the intake still did not line up and I am pretty sure I may have stripped a few of those as well to get the Studs down in there. 

Better to let these skeletons out of the closet now so they are caught at the right time!  :0)



« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 08:53:50 PM by cobracammer »
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

WConley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1221
  • No longer walking funny!
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1236 on: October 19, 2015, 12:21:26 PM »
Sounds like it could have been a lot worse Jason.  The cams, cam bearings, and rocker rebuild will be some $$$, but at least it seems nothing else is destroyed.  Hopefully the cam bearing bores in the heads aren't too bad.

Jay will have that beast back in top shape.  If anybody knows how to improvise, he does!

- Bill
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7562
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1237 on: October 19, 2015, 01:48:04 PM »
Jason gave a really good description of what I found; the cam bearings (in the block) were the culprit.  I was quite surprised that the standard FE topoiler bearings were in the engine, and not the sideoiler bearings; a regular 427 sideoiler wedge FE would have burned up the valvetrain too if it had been fitted with those bearings.  I was also surprised that some of the cam bearing shells were welded together; man it must have been hot in there!  The ones that did come apart were toast.  Here's some pictures:






After I got the stub cam out I looked into the cam tunnel and thought I could see that the #3 cam bearing had the hole in position to line up with the oil passage in the block.  Since there was no #3 cam journal, this was a problem, obviously.  After I got the crank out, I confirmed this issue:




I also noticed that the main bearings looked funny, with shiny spots in some areas and no visible wear in others.  Pretty sure that this is the crank; the bearings are std/std, and those RPM cranks are notorious for taper and out of round issues.  So we'll get the crank ground 10/10 and use oversize bearings.

Fortunately the cylinders bores look pretty much perfect, and I'm thinking we might be able to get away with cleaning and re-installing the pistons and rings as they are.  Since the bottom end was oiled and had that leak, I'm guessing the cylinder wall condition is from lots of oil.  The chambers and piston tops are black, because the vacuum leak that Jason had while running the engine made the EFI unit add a bunch of fuel, but I think the oil from the bottom end kept the cylinder walls well lubricated, preventing any scoring.

Really the only thing left to do is to disassemble the heads and look at the valves and guides; hopefully they are OK.  Then its off to the machine shop with the parts.  Here's a picture of my shop after the disassembly process. 



Time for another cleanup LOL!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 03:50:07 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1221
  • No longer walking funny!
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1238 on: October 19, 2015, 02:00:34 PM »
Jay - Are those iron cams?  They don't look like the new billet ones I've seen.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7562
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1239 on: October 19, 2015, 03:47:12 PM »
There is some evidence of copper cladding left on the ends of the cams, Bill, so I think they are billets.  I will have to look again to be sure...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cobracammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1173
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1240 on: October 19, 2015, 03:53:36 PM »
Hi guys.  They are advertised as bearing grade billet cams 
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

Nightmist66

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1209
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1241 on: October 19, 2015, 05:49:46 PM »
Glad to see all problems were found and can be resolved. Best of luck on the rebuild.

Jay, do you have any pics of the main bearings? Thanks for posting all of this.
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4537
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1242 on: October 20, 2015, 01:24:12 PM »
Definitely a bad but still very good teardown. If you had driven the car much, you would have likely ended up with seized cams or valves which would have caused a catastrophic domino effect. I'm surprised Pond sent the wrong bearings, but a lesson to be learned by everyone whose watching is to not deal with a machine shop that isn't familiar with FE's. I'm happy to see you sticking with this project because I think it'll be pretty cool when it's done.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

cobracammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1173
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1243 on: October 20, 2015, 02:03:14 PM »
Thanks. Unfortunately I am not sure if pond sent the wrong bearings or my machine shop mixed up and installed the wrong bearings.  Live and learn   ;D
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

KMcCullah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1244 on: October 20, 2015, 03:10:22 PM »
Jay/Jason-It looks like a plug is in the #4 cam bearing hole. Wouldn't that plug need a groove around the outside of it to send oil up to the head? And the #2 cam bearing would need a groove to send oil up to the other head? Or does the stub cam have a groove in the #2 journal? And #3 and #5 just get plugged? I'm trying to get this Cammer oiling straightened out in my pointy head. This is waaay different than a wedge FE.   ??? 
Kevin McCullah