My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!

[cobracammer]

Got to bring this up again.... Dont kill me

Went to the guy who did my machine work ( mustang performance racing) to get the joe gibbs oil

First off, i took the oil filter insides with me so he could have a look. He said it looked totally normal for a first break in run

Then I was telling him about my overheating prob......
His first question?  Whats your timing at?

When i said 16 initial and 34 total with the mechanical advance, he said wayyyy to low and he thinks thats why its overheating. I have to ask again, since my engine runs soooo hot, is there any way i should be at 20 -25 degrees initial,?  I really want to see the engine stay under 200 degrees

This is the 3rd person to say my initial timing is making it run hot and that its too low.

[My427stang]

Turn it to 22 and let it idle, prove it to yourself, if it changes, recurve the distributor to the same total.

You have too many cooks in the kitchen.  I have to be honest, the same questions over and over hoping for a different answer is real frustrating for old heads.

I PROMISE its not WAY TOO LOW, but if you recurve, play with 22, just remember it may not like to start hot and you may have to slow the curve down

I have to tell you and I am going to say it in a way that sounds like a dick.  LOL

You don't even know that you HAVE an overheating problem, you keep starting the car and letting it idle with uncoated headers and repeated changes under the hood, but you are so hyper focused on it, we can't get past it. 

Try it, let it idle, and like I said yesterday, let it idle and get real hot, see what it does, at 15 or 22.

FWIW, even the slightest movement will wick air away from under the car too which will let the fans work better.

If you think those guys know more than the guys here, use them, but watch out, Jay knows where timing should be based on that chamber design and quench, we all know what runs well on the street, and using the generic answers has melted a lot of pistons over the years

[My427stang]

BTW, with that tight engine compartment and uncoated headers, I would be amazed if a fresh motor will just chug away at 200 degrees

[jayb]

I just can't imagine that's the problem, Jason.  The most initial I ever run is 20, and that's only on an EFI system where you can dial in the total timing at any amount.  You have about 15 in the distributor, correct?  If you went to 25 initial, you would have 40 total, which is way, way too much for that engine. 

You are probably timing the engine at idle, right?  I don't like to do that; I prefer to time the engines at total advance, and let the initial fall where it may.  I suppose it is possible that some of your centrifugal timing is coming in right away, and so you don't have as much initial timing as you think.  When I time an engine I rev it up to 3000-3500 and adjust for total timing, about 32 degrees in your case.  You might try that instead.

By the way, the difference in engine temp between being timed at 16 degrees initial and 20 degrees initial will not be significant.  I've been thinking that your overheating problem is a combination of new engine, uncoated headers,  tight engine compartment, and the issues you've been fighting all along (not turning the water pump, radiator too small, insufficient electric fans).  I think you have most of that licked at this point.  Keep trying - Jay

[blykins]

Initial timing is not too low.  Unless it was locked out for a race application, I don't think I've ever ran over 20 degrees initial on anything.

I'm with Ross, you need to just quit hem-hawing around and just drive the thing.   

[cjshaker]

I'm with Ross, you need to just quit hem-hawing around and just drive the thing.

+3....or is it 4?

I'm jumping on the band wagon here. STOP listening to people who know NOTHING about the SOHC. The best advice you're going to get is right here on this forum. These guys are trying to help you, but you're just not listening. And Jay is right, adjust the total and let the initial be what it is. If the initial is an issue with starting or idle, it can be dealt with later in the distributor. Total timing is what should concern you most.

It's the same story, new tune....idle, new tune....idle, new tune....idle.

You're not going to get anywhere doing that. DRIVE IT.

[foxlincoln]

So you guys will think I am off on this.But think about this,most factory engines run 2 bypass systems of about 5/8 hose One for the bypass hose and one for the heater.This to allow the engine to warm up evenly.Coolant is always circulating in the motor when its running. I have seen big block chevy guys take of their bypass hose off only to put it back on,because it would puke coolant every time they would shut it off. What is the cooling system setup now?Thermostat installed and where?You have all the good stuff.It has to be something simple.Jay what do you run as far as thermostat,what temps do you run.

[blykins]

My major concern at this point would be how compromised the ring seal has been.  Now obviously, we're not dealing with 60's honing techniques and ring materials, but the first thing to do with any new engine is to get it going and put a hard load on it with an engine dyno, or get it going and get it out on the road and cycle the rpms/loads on the engine. 

With as rich as the engine has been, just sitting in the driveway idling repeatedly is not helping anything and could possibly be making things worse for the long run.

[My427stang]

So you guys will think I am off on this.But think about this,most factory engines run 2 bypass systems of about 5/8 hose One for the bypass hose and one for the heater.This to allow the engine to warm up evenly.Coolant is always circulating in the motor when its running. I have seen big block chevy guys take of their bypass hose off only to put it back on,because it would puke coolant every time they would shut it off. What is the cooling system setup now?Thermostat installed and where?You have all the good stuff.It has to be something simple.Jay what do you run as far as thermostat,what temps do you run.

It is simple, its a fresh motor jam packed into a tight body with big uncoated headers sitting in Southern Florida idling....and it does have a hole drilled as a bypass allow some movement.

I do understand that you are concerned with the amount of bypass, but by the time it hits thermostat temp, a bypass is not required, matter of fact, many vehicles, including 351C, Powerstrokes and other of all brands have a lower disk that closes off the bypass once the thermostat opens.

In the end, he may indeed have to louver a hood or put a hood scoop to allow it to vent heat when not moving, but he just isn't there yet.  Installing the headers before coating, bad belts, loose bolts, small radiator, insufficient fans all are explainable, now is the time to break it in and see what it really does.

We still don't know if it will boil over with the new belt, radiator and fans, so it's hard to say there is even an issue.

I can't stress enough that checking every nut and bolt, every fluid level, and having a plan will relax him and ensure he doesn't have another bracket, bolt, you name it falling off.  After that, he needs to let the car talk to him.

Brent has a good point, I personally think that ring seal will be OK, but eventually it won't and like Brent said, time to get a load on it and let the computer work it's own magic

[cobracammer]

To be completely honest, sometimes I need to be talked to like a dick. Lol

It was time to man up. Car started right up, but there was still alot of clicking. After a few minutes, i found that the spal fans were rattl'n against the aluminum shroud. On a seperate note, no squealing at all with the new 7/16" belt

Waited for car to get to 185 and 2nd fan kicked on. Started to see coolant level drop in degas tank so I knew thermostat had opened. Added more coolant ( degas tank about half full). Replaced degas cap, and car got as hot as 190. Stayed there for a bit.... And I thought this would be as good a time as ever to head out ( only around the block). Long story short, maybe 1/4 mile in the neighborhood and when i pulled back into garage, coolant temp only at 200.  As I was only in 1st and 2 nd gear, i still felt ok about it.  Did find that brakes are a little soft for my taste. Im going to check on the fuse for the abs system ( or maybe try bleeding them again?). Then out again a little further.....  Thanks Ross,  sometimes i need hard love

Oh also, i saw that the vacuum line to the throttle body from fuel pressure regulator was not air tight...  When i push it hard onto the throttle body, the fuel pressure stops jumping around. Will have to get a t fitting and some smaller hose to fix that

[My427stang]

Look at that, AWESOME!

That elephant is being eaten on bite at a time.

Grab a notebook and start writing things down.

- Tighten fan mount
- Repair vacuum line
- Mark degas bottle for cold fill line
- Check all belts after run
- Figure out brakes and repair

Keep that list handy and add to it, and cross  things off, eventually you will have no more elephant to eat

Believe me, everyone on this list has been there, and yours was an ambitious build.  I am still an absolute Jason fan, just needed to talk  you off the ledge before I pushed you off

[cobracammer]

Hahaha. Thanks Ross

[turbohunter]

Congrats Jason

[cobracammer]

Thanks Marc

[Bolted to Floor]

Glad to see you get some windshield time Jason