Author Topic: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!  (Read 775558 times)

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sixty9cobra

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2010 on: May 03, 2018, 04:23:17 PM »
Stinky exhaust at idle means its too lean. Forget the 14:1 its not a smog car.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 05:38:40 PM by sixty9cobra »

Joey120373

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2011 on: May 04, 2018, 02:20:04 PM »
when it comes to idle on an engine with anything but a bog stock cam in it, i completely ignore what the A/F and timing settings "should" be, and give the engine what it wants.

Its been my experience that a cam-ed engine will like a richer idle and more base timing than what is generally used for a stock cam.

I don't care about hitting certain numbers, i just go back and forth with fuel and spark till the engine seems happiest, or sounds the best and call it good. Once the engine is over the 1400-1800 rpm range, then i start looking at hitting particular numbers with timing and A/F.

My 2cents.

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2012 on: May 07, 2018, 07:20:23 AM »
Hey Guys,

OK took the car out again.  I think you all are right.  I really don't care about the smell.  Let it be rich!

Anyway, I have to admit, I am pretty bummed.  About 5 miles into my drive and that stupid belt squeal came back!  I am not really sure this time.  I lined the pulleys up last time with a laser.  The only thing I can think of this time is that the belt is too tight?  The squeal only seemed to happen in the lower gears.  Once up to cruising speed, it went away.

I would love to make this problem go away for good as its always going to nag at me that the belt will snap again.

The belt is really tight.  no slack at all when I try pushing on it with my finger.  However, I can not find any information on line about the proper tension for a V belt on an FE engine.  Read something that you should be able to turn the longest run of the belt 90 degrees but no more if properly tensioned, but that was more just chatter I saw online and not really solid info.  Thoughts?
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

jayb

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2013 on: May 07, 2018, 09:21:40 AM »
You might have to change up your pulley system.  A single groove V-belt (if that's what you've got, I can't remember for sure) is not enough to turn a high amperage alternator when it has to deliver a bunch of current.  I went to a dual belt system for a while but eventually went with a 6 ribbed belt setup, and that solved the problem with my 200 amp Powermaster alternator.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

mbrunson427

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2014 on: May 07, 2018, 02:21:12 PM »
Are you running one of those "Gatorback" belts? I think Jay mentioned it a bit earlier. Had to switch to one on the Cougar after installing the 200A alternator because it was squealing. That style belt took care of it. Was preparing to do 6 ribbed deal, but it hasn't been necessary.
Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

Joey120373

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2015 on: May 07, 2018, 03:53:19 PM »
A single V velt ( im assuming that is what you have ? ) is going to have a hard time with a modern high current alt,
and the problem gets compounded when you have an engine that revs fast.
Are you using new pulleys everywhere? One problem ive had many times with older vehicles is that the v groove in the pulley wears out, it gets cupped and starts looking more like a U than a V, it simply doesn't grab the belt anymore and you cant get rid of the squeal. A new belt  fixes it for a short time, but it will start squealing again.
One other consideration it how far around the pulley the belt actually wraps. The more the better here, its all about surface contact. Ive seen some custom back yard installs that had maybe 20-25% of the pulley covered by the belt, just no hope for that situation, like trying to drag race with the old doughnut spare tires on the back.

Im guessing you are not using old pulleys though, so its a bit of a PITA. A conversion to a serpentine system would probably fix it for good.

The " turn the belt 90 degrees " thing is what we used to go with on serpentine belts if they didn't have a spring loaded tension-er, on a v belt, that method is going to give you a really tight belt.
Too tight a belt can be hard on all the bearings involved, including the crank bearing.
Though i never used one back when i turned wrenches for a living, they had a tool for setting the belt tension. you basically pushed on the longest run of the back of the belt and measured how far it would move, totally pulling this out of my rear end hear but if the belt would move say 1/2 inch it was good, more than that loose, less it was to tight.
Im sure a google search might dredge up something on setting the tention with or without one of these tools. I always just grabbed the belt and wiggled it.   
I feel your pain here, i HATE belt squeal, and it is incredibly irritating when it just wont go away.   

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2016 on: May 08, 2018, 08:45:21 AM »
Thanks.  Yes, I am actually using one of those Gatorback belts currently.  Jay had suggested the serpentine system as well.  When doing a little sleuthing online, there seems to be quite a few instances where people did a 3G conversion on an older car (seems pretty popular), and while running V belts, they experience squealing.

I called March Pulleys yesterday, and while they do sell the serpentine system, the gentleman on the phone was almost talking me out of getting on.  He kept saying that if the V belt setup I have on there now is one of theirs (which it is), then there would be no need. 

Obviously there is a need, and I don't mind paying the $300 or so dollars for the conversion kit, but I thought I would try an "in-between" step.  The Crank Pulley and water pump pulley I have from March is a Double Groove (from back when I thought Power Steering was going to happen).  The Alternator pulley is only a single groove.  I was able to find a Matching new pulley that has the double groove for about $25.00.

My thought was to run a double V belt set up.  Seems like double the belt surface area would help and was logical.  If it doesn't work, and I still get squealing, then I'm out 20 dollars and I can move on to the serpentine system.  If it does work, then I saved a cool $275 and I can then find another way to spend it  :0)
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

jayb

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2017 on: May 08, 2018, 08:53:31 AM »
The double V belt will definitely help, hopefully it solves the problem completely.

Oh, and I've used March pulleys on crank and alternator and still had the squealing issue.  Sounds like you were talking to the March "salesman"  ;)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 09:01:37 AM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2018 on: May 08, 2018, 09:00:16 AM »
Yep, the dual set-up should help.

Now, some old school stuff! Liquid belt dressing is still sold IIRC and it often times does work. I'd NOT use it until after the dual pulleys are tried. Oddly, even on new belts the dressing does soak into the rubber and essentially provides a non-slip surface. I think of it as rosin as used on a baseball bat! 
Bob Maag

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2019 on: May 08, 2018, 09:38:32 AM »
As a side note, I happen to take pictures of my timing control and AFR's info on the EFI handheld.  I bet I am off in a few of these and small tweaks would make the car run even better.  What are you thoughts on these numbers?


Timing Control:

Distributor Base timing (spark during cranking) = 10.1 degrees

Idle Advance (timing it goes to right after fire-up and while idling)= 16.1 degree

1100 45kPa = 16.9 degrees

3000 45kPa Cruise = 30.0 Degrees

6000 45kPa = 30.0 Degrees

WOT 1100 95kPa = 16.9 Degrees

WOT 3000 95kPa = 30.0 Degrees

WOT 6000 95kPa = 30.0 Degrees


Air Fuel Ratios:

Idle AFR Target = 13.70

1100 45kPa = 13.70

3000 45kPa Cruise 13.70

6000 45kPa = 13.7

WOT 1100 95kPa = 13.5

WOT 3000 95kPa = 13.00

WOT 6000 95kPa = 12.50
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2020 on: May 11, 2018, 06:53:09 AM »
Went out and played with the AFR's a bit (at idle).  Got it to the following before I had to quit for the night.  realized I forgot to mention that this car does not have Catalytic Converters.  Didn't have them from they day I purchased. So I am guessing the gas smell is not going to totally go away:

Timing Control:

Distributor Base timing (spark during cranking) = 10.1 degrees

Idle Advance (timing it goes to right after fire-up and while idling)= 16.1 degree

1100 45kPa = 16.9 degrees

3000 45kPa Cruise = 30.0 Degrees

6000 45kPa = 30.0 Degrees

WOT 1100 95kPa = 16.9 Degrees

WOT 3000 95kPa = 30.0 Degrees

WOT 6000 95kPa = 30.0 Degrees


Air Fuel Ratios:

Idle AFR Target = 13.85

1100 45kPa = 13.80

3000 45kPa Cruise 13.70

6000 45kPa = 13.70

WOT 1100 95kPa = 13.5

WOT 3000 95kPa = 13.00

WOT 6000 95kPa = 12.50


I have been reading like crazy on EFI and I think some of the things I am "sure about is are as follows:

1 Cold start needs more fuel (Prime) to start than starting when already at operating temperature.  Apparently this is due to the fact that the fuel on cold ignition does not stay atomized.  It tends to stick to the intake manifold walls.  On the flip side of that, the amount of fuel you would need to get the car to fire right up on a cold start would be too rich when trying to re-start the car at operating temperature.

So, the short of it is that there are 2 different adjustments that need to be made, and these adjustments must operate separate from one another or at least one way.  And what do I mean by one way?

OK FiTech has many different options for setting fuel.  A setting called "Prime Fuel Multiplier" gives a shot of fuel from the injectors at key on to prime for fire up.  When you get the system, this value is set PIG RICH.  So rich infact that its set higher than the maximum you can physically change it to based on the Min and Max values.  As an example, its set to a value of 259.  If you go to change the value manually, it telly you that you can only enter a value between -100 (off) and 100 (?).  If you do change it manually, you will not be able to change it back to 259 as its not within the parameters.  I believe they do this as Richer is safer.  Once you have your IAC set correctly, this 259 value may even be too rich for cold start up.  After much reading and some pretty good youtube videos, this is a valuable tid bit not mentioned in any fitech manual:  Adjust Prime Fuel Multiplier only to get a good start when already at operating temperature.  Because this "Prime" shot will be the same in any condition (hot or cold), and Hot starts have a leaner need, use the prime shot multiplier to get hot starts squared away.  Once you have done this, the engine should fire up instantly when re-starting it after its already at operating temperature.

Now...  this leaves you with a Prime Shot that will be too lean for a cold start!  Well, we are just in luck.  A few entries below the Prime fuel multiplier is cranking fuel settings.  Since we are looking for a slightly richer "environment" when starting the car cold, and we already have a bit of a Prime shot (adjusted for perfect hot starts), we can set a value here that will only add fuel when cranking cold.....  and not hot!  So this way they are independent of one another, but the cold start takes advantage of the smaller prime shot setting and then adds a bit more.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 02:12:37 PM by cobracammer »
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

Joey120373

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2021 on: May 22, 2018, 01:42:25 PM »
Ok, Im going to attempt to explain a few things  here, keep in mind i'm no expert, and as usual im going to butcher it, badly, but here goes.

Cold start up was always one of the things that took me the longest to get dialed in. You get one shot at a true cold start, then you have to wait for the engine to completely cool down again, usually the next morning.

So, if memory serves me here, you have  a "Priming pulse" that squirts fuel into the engine when the key is turned on, like pumping the gas on an old car before you crank it. This pulse is longer on a cold engine, and much closer to the idle pulse width on a hot engine.

Then there is "after start enrichment", this adds extra fuel on top of the calculated fuel needed just after start up, this is usually only for a short period of time, this is timed in seconds or even counted engine revolutions. This is to counter act the cold, dry manifold. There will always be a certain volume of fuel that clings to the walls of the port, it moves along the port with the airflow, but no where near as fast. the colder the manifold, and the slower the engine speed, generally the more volume of a given fuel injection event tends to stick. Just after the engine fires up, the fuel that is clinging to the walls starts migrating to the valve, and within a short amount of time, the manifold is fully "wet-ed" and the amount of fuel that gets to the combustion chamber off the walls remains relatively stable, cycle to cycle. So that's the main purpose of this setting, to account for the fact that, until the manifold is fully wet-ed, it will run pretty lean just after start up.

Then, finally you have Cold Enrichment, or Choke. This acts exactly like a choke would on a carb, it is more tied to engine temp. It adds fuel to compensate for the fact that more fuel sticks to a cold manifold vs a hot one.

All three of these enrichment's taper off as the engine runs longer and/or warms up, but the tricky part is they all overlap each other. Getting them right involves a lot of trial and error, and paying very close attention to how the engine fires up and runs immediately after start up.

To add to the tuning troubles,  the A/F ratio the engine wants to run at, at a cold or even warmed up idle, can be a fairly arbitrary number. So watching the O2 can be a great help, but only if you take this into into account. Speaking of the O2, most take a good 30-60 seconds to warm up.
If you just hop in and start the engine, you wont get valid readings till long after the priming pulse and after start enrichment have done their thing.
So turning the key to the on position, then waiting a till the O2 is warm before firing the engine can help.

So, don't get discouraged. For me at least, tuning cold starts was always the trickiest and took the longest. Sometimes i got lucky, and others it seemed i was chasing my tail for weeks.
 

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2022 on: May 24, 2018, 07:37:34 AM »
Thanks Joey,

Definitely one of those things that you have to "Do" to get experienced and not just read about it.  I actually am getting a little help with the tuning (more to come on that), but for starters.....  My Idle AFR is now 14.7  LOL  I was way off into Rich territory.  I think I understand that with Cam Overlap, the O2 sensor will actually not be totally accurate.  I would go from 13.5 to 14.0, and not hear any difference in the idle.  I was not even thinking about going leaner that 14.0, but apparently my ideal idle AFR is 14.7!  LOL  Now you can still smell fuel (Well....  it is a race engine), but at least I don't need to take a shower after standing next to it while its at idle.  Thank you for the explanation.  Any and all info I can get on EFI is helpful.

:0)
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cobracammer

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2023 on: June 07, 2018, 06:46:29 AM »
Good Morning all,

Here is some fun news.  I wanted to wait until all was settled before announcing.  For those of you who wanted me to post videos of the car (and I haven't been able to), the car will be on TV!!!

The car will be on CarFix (Velocity Channel) on August 8th.  The hosts of the show, Jared Zimmerman and Lou Santiago will be fiddl'n with the car on TV and taking it for a drive.  The show had the car for about 2 weeks.  They cleaned up some of my "just get it to work" wiring.  They also were the ones who dialed in my AFR's.  My apologies for now getting video's of the car on here earlier, but hopefully the episode (CF709 is the episode number) will be fun to watch!  Stay tuned......
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

62Falcon390

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Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #2024 on: June 07, 2018, 02:00:17 PM »
so we gotta wait 2 more month?  :-\    that's awesome