Author Topic: 545" High Riser Build  (Read 201730 times)

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My427stang

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #165 on: March 10, 2012, 11:01:02 AM »
Beautiful work Jay.  I loved the cammer builds as much as the next guy, but this wedge is awesome.  Can't wait to see the results
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

fetorino

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #166 on: March 10, 2012, 02:41:29 PM »
Got some new parts! 


A few weeks ago, Woody Owens contacted me about an FE crank spacer with a built in gilmer drive pulley for the FE, available from Aviad.  I had never seen one before.  It didn't dawn on me when I was emailing Woody that I could maybe use something like that to run the Peterson external oil pump I need to fit on the engine.  After looking at the picture that Woody sent, I decided to call Aviaid and order one.  Here's a photo:



This spacer puts the oil pump drive out of the way, back behind the harmonic balancer.  It has 26 teeth.  I like it because it will make the mounting of the oil pump on the engine much more compact.

I'm planning to finish up the water pump spacer machining this weekend and get to work on mocking up the short block to check for p-v clearance.  Should be fun...

Jay

It's good to hear the Aviad spacer looks to be a good part.  I'm about to pull the trigger on a dry sump set up from them for my TP project.  They make a complete 4 stage set up for the FE.  Bracket, pump, spacer, belt, pan.  Have you ever run a dry sump set up on any of your motors?

jayb

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #167 on: March 10, 2012, 02:45:48 PM »
I have not yet run a dry sump, but I am about to.  My big SOHC is going to get one before I put it back in the Shelby clone for Drag Week 2012.  I'll post the information on what I'm going to get and how it works under that thread, when I get going on that engine.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

fetorino

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #168 on: March 10, 2012, 04:45:58 PM »
I thought about the Dailey set up integrated pan and pump.  Billet pan looks sweet.

http://www.daileyengineering.com/fe_cammer.htm

I'm pretty sure I'll go the Aviad route though.  I'm also looking to run my PS pump on the backside of the oil pump.

http://aviaid.com/pdfs/127-ford_fe_systems.pdf

jayb

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #169 on: March 10, 2012, 05:04:02 PM »
This week and today I finished up my adapters for the 385 water pump.  Here's a photo of the finished adapters (built without any setup errors this time LOL!), and also a shot with the water pump mounted on the engine:





I need to do a little hand grinding on these internally to smooth everything out, but they are essentially completed at this point.  

Just as I was getting the adapters bolted on the engine, the Fedex Ground truck arrived (rather unexpectedly on a Saturday), and delivered my new Peterson oil pump!  With the pistons, crank sleeve, and oil pump arriving here, the last couple of days have been just like Christmas.  I pulled the pump out of the box and was immediately surprised at how large it was; I hadn't seen a picture of it before I'd ordered it, and I wasn't expecting a pump that was this long.  Here's a picture of the pump, along with the inlet tube that has to be welded into the oil pan, and the red anodized large screen filter to keep any trash in the pan from getting into the pump:



I measured the length of the pump, and it measured 11" from the end of the shaft to the end of the body.  I knew immediately that this was going to pitch my mounting plan for the pump right out the window.  Sure enough, I jockeyed it into an approximate position in the Mach 1, and given the position of the headers and shock towers, it would not go back far enough to let the shaft line up with the Gilmer belt pulley machined into the crank spacer I had just bought from Aviad.  No big deal on the spacer, because I can use it on my big SOHC when I set that engine up for a dry sump.  But now I would need a separate pulley for the pump, to mount out in front of the harmonic balance.

Another fitment issue I had not previously considered was the position of the strut rod housings in the engine compartment.  Those things always seem to get in the way of something, especially if you're working under the car.  But in this case they would limit how far down I could mount the pump, unless I mounted it entirely under the car, which I really didn't want to do.  It looked like the lowest spot in the engine compartment where I could mount it would leave the shaft of the pump at about the same height as the crank centerline.  This was of course above the level of the oil in the pan.  I read the directions for the pump and it didn't say anything about it needing to be mounted real low, but I'd like to check on that to be sure.  Also, the pump could be mounted with the inlets facing down, up, or to the side, or in any direction for that matter, but I don't know if there is a preferred way to mount it so it will work the best.  Another thing I thought about was whether I could disassemble the pump and rotate the scavenge sections 90 or 180 degrees with respect to the pump section.  That might make the mounting situation a little less challenging, but I don't know if I can do that or not.  I'm going to have to give Peterson Pumps a call on Monday and try to get these questions answered.

In any case, I'm about done with the work on this engine for now.  I'll be waiting for parts and services for the next several weeks before I can proceed further.  I need to have the new hollow stem valves ground to fit the heads and the guides honed or replaced if necessary to fit the valve stems, and I also have to send the pistons out to be coated after checking the piston to valve clearance with my new cam.  Once the pistons are back I'll have my shop check for correct piston to cylinder wall clearance, and touch up the hone if necessary.  I expect all this to take 4-6 weeks.  Then I can do the final assembly, finish whatever brackets are required, and get the engine on the dyno.  Oh yeah, and I have to build an oil pan.  This thing had better make 900 HP when I'm finished with it...

Edit:  On further examination of the pump, there is no way that the scavenge section can be rotated with respect to the pump section.  The bolts holding the pump together are unevenly spaced.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 09:34:47 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #170 on: March 10, 2012, 05:07:26 PM »
I thought about the Dailey set up integrated pan and pump.  Billet pan looks sweet.

http://www.daileyengineering.com/fe_cammer.htm

I'm pretty sure I'll go the Aviad route though.  I'm also looking to run my PS pump on the backside of the oil pump.

http://aviaid.com/pdfs/127-ford_fe_systems.pdf

Man, that billet oil pan is really cool!  I never thought about a billet oil pan before.  Hmmmmm......
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #171 on: March 11, 2012, 09:23:32 AM »
It must feel like Christmas all the time when you open up those packages, even if you bought the presents yourself...LOL!

Not surprised on the fitment issues with the dry sump pump. Not easy to retrofit on a already-built chassis. Have seen that pro all-tube chassis builders (for Pro, Pro/Mod) like Skinny Kid, Bickel, do require the team to supply a mocked-up engine with not only the multi-stage pump mounted but all lines attached, the pan and details on where the requisite sump tank should go. Good luck with mounting same as I hope you don't need to do any chassis work to make it fit. 
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #172 on: March 11, 2012, 09:33:59 AM »
Well, it's going to have to fit without any surgery, because I'm not going to start cutting on my R code Mach 1.  But as long as I can mount it above the oil level in the pan, I think I can make it work.  Otherwise, I may have a problem...
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 03:17:18 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

JamesonRacing

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #173 on: March 11, 2012, 01:36:11 PM »
The Peterson Wetvac I installed on my Genesis engine was a real challenge to get the pump fittings to clear all the other parts.  I think it would have been even tougher if the pump was moved back, especially if you are using factory engine mounts.



1966 Fairlane GT, Silver Blue/Black 496/C4 (9.93@133)
1966 Fairlane GT, Nightmist Blue/Black 465/TKO (11.41@122)
1966 Fairlane GTA Conv, Antique Bronze/Black, 418EFI/C6
1966 F250 C/S, Rangoon Red, 445/T19
1965 Falcon Futura 4-door, Turquoise, EF! Z2363/4R70W

cdmbill2

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #174 on: March 11, 2012, 01:48:11 PM »
Jay I noticed one thning and metion a couple others. I relaized as I added this that its a bunch of stuff and some photoes are out of order in terms when they were taken. But I thought I might be able to save you some time.

The Peterson I have uses a Gilmer belt and pulley like the one below. The Avaid drive mandel you bought looks to use a Super Torque belt like you timing belt likley uses and they have different and non-compatble cog designs and belt pitch see comparison shot between the Super Torque used onthe Danny Bee belt dirve and the Gilmer used on my Peterson.





You have the new updated Peterson whih has the oil section up front instead of the back as mine does. In order to get the drive mandrel lined up and to clear various Mustang suspension components I added 2.75" spacers behind the Peterson supplied 385 mount. Their mount had an addtional sapcer ~1.75" out the front of it. It used the Ford alternator bolt and the lower front accessory mount bolt hole next to the timing cover. I used Grade 8, 7/16" all thread to sandwich my spacer, the Peterson mount and the alternator's main mounting point. The lower hole is 3/8" all thread with the spacer mount, timing pointer and tension rod for the Alternator stacked up. The first shows just the mount and the Wide-vac unit. You can see the #16 line that comes under the dampener form the pick up tube I installed on the drivers side of the engine. I need to add that pick-up ecreen at some point as my fragged lifter tore up the pump pretty good at DW '05.









I made a drive mandrel spacer which sandwiches the pulley to the dampener. My dampener spacer has the 36-1 wheel welded to it be hinf the dampener in that same space the aviad unit is designed to run the dry sump belt. I could never make that spacing work w for belt clearance nevermind the location of the Wide-vac.



I also ran a strap from the alternator stud to the water pump boss to help stabilize the whole assembly against the pull fo the alternator belt and the wide-vac pump drive. It also holds the Lokar dip stick.



This last one gives an idea of the relationship of all the pieces now. I added the little tensioner for the new Powermaster 200 amp alt after pitchng the belt in Topeka. The new motor revs faster and perfect aligment is more necessary that before. You can also see the mnadrel spacer. You should be able to make that in about three minutes given what you've been doing on the CNC. I used a lathe and a mill.



BTW this setup just survived the Run to the Coast, road course, speed stop slalom and auto-x so I think I'm good for DW now. Fingers crossed, now for paint and new hood.


cdmbill2

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #175 on: March 11, 2012, 02:16:11 PM »
I just saw the JamesonRacing post and noticed that his has rounded tooth drive so they've updated that. One other note on the front of his his pump snout there is a small allen head bolt and washer. You can use that for pre-lubing which is another advantage of these set-ups. The disadvantage is the bolt is small and my high torque drill sheared it off.

jayb

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #176 on: March 11, 2012, 03:31:29 PM »
Thanks for all the pictures, guys, they answer nearly all of my questions.  Bill it sure looks like you are correct about the differences between the belts.  Since I can't use the Aviaid spacer with the built in pulley, I will need to order both pulleys from Peterson, so I will see what they send me, but since I'm going to end up with both pulleys from them, it probably doesn't matter.  I think I can use that big stud coming out of the block like you did for the main mounting point of the pump.

That pump is so heavy I'm tempted to try to find another way to mount it at the back also, for better stability, kind of like the way it was done with the motor plate.  Bill, unless I'm missing something yours just mounts at the front.  Any vibration or stability problems with your setup?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 03:34:36 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

JamesonRacing

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #177 on: March 11, 2012, 09:44:40 PM »
Peterson sells a 7/16" drive spud that replaces the capscrew on the end of the pump so you can easily prime the engine.  It has a ball end like an allen wrench, so it accomodates some offset angles to access it.  I spec'd the HTD drive for my oil pump, IIRC it's a lot stronger belt system than the Gilmer belts.
1966 Fairlane GT, Silver Blue/Black 496/C4 (9.93@133)
1966 Fairlane GT, Nightmist Blue/Black 465/TKO (11.41@122)
1966 Fairlane GTA Conv, Antique Bronze/Black, 418EFI/C6
1966 F250 C/S, Rangoon Red, 445/T19
1965 Falcon Futura 4-door, Turquoise, EF! Z2363/4R70W

jayb

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #178 on: March 12, 2012, 09:11:06 AM »
Peterson sells a 7/16" drive spud that replaces the capscrew on the end of the pump so you can easily prime the engine.  It has a ball end like an allen wrench, so it accomodates some offset angles to access it.  I spec'd the HTD drive for my oil pump, IIRC it's a lot stronger belt system than the Gilmer belts.

Thanks, that helps.  I think I will go with the HTD drive and standardize on that.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: 545" High Riser Build
« Reply #179 on: March 12, 2012, 10:39:53 AM »
Jay - Going HTD is a good call.  I use it on all of my stuff (including the spin test machine!)

I used to do some timing belt design at Ford.  We replaced the trapezoid tooth profile with HTD whenever possible.  It's quieter and far more durable, with a lot more reserve capacity for when you need to squeeze aluminum chunks through that oil pump  ;D
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