Author Topic: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!  (Read 43436 times)

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FE_Rex

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2011, 09:09:40 PM »
Looks like you need a Schmitt trigger to smooth the data.  Have you / can you played with the sensor gap?

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2011, 10:05:13 PM »
I did play with the airgap when the engine was on the dyno in 2010.  Had a lot of trouble with that, but ended up with an airgap of .025" working up through the RPM range.  I remember that an airgap of .045" worked up to about 3500 RPM, and then the engine started missing.  That one had me fooled for a while.

If you disconnect the crank sensor from the ECU, you get a nice, rail to rail square wave output when cranking.  The ems-pro's internal circuitry, which uses an optocoupler input for isolation, loads the sensor output and keeps the signal from swinging rail to rail.  It is not a CMOS input, for example, with infinite input impedance.

The Hamlin sensor has its own signal processing built in, including a comparator circuit with built in hysteresis.  The ems-pro also has a comparator circuit, but I can't tell from the schematic what the trigger level is set at.  Again, this setup works just fine when the engine is running; the problem is that during cranking, the ECU can't seem to tell where the missing tooth is, and so loses timing "sync".

The distributor was simpler... :D
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

427Fastback

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2011, 12:34:37 AM »
I sit down and read this thread every night.Like a lot of people I am curious as to the missing HP and the electrical gremlins.I read with absolute fascination at all that is going on but....no matter how many rye and cokes i have I still dont understand a bloody thing you guys are talking  about. I'll be back tomorrow night for another dose of terms and words I have never heard before....

Cory
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

Cyclone03

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2011, 09:28:12 AM »
I was going to post something along the line of go back to basics and break the problem down into little pieces,but....

Is it possible to test the crank sensor without any input from the CPU? That said I think you have just about beat the bad crank sensor to death. Is it possible the crank sensor wiring is picking up EMI on the way to the CPU? Or for that mater EMI in general?
Can You test and log with the ignition disabled?

How about something that's at this point is just dumb to ask,but here goes...
Are all the grounds in the engine management system terminated in the same place? Ground offsets can be hell.
Lance H

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2011, 11:45:57 AM »
I was going to post something along the line of go back to basics and break the problem down into little pieces,but....

Is it possible to test the crank sensor without any input from the CPU? That said I think you have just about beat the bad crank sensor to death. Is it possible the crank sensor wiring is picking up EMI on the way to the CPU? Or for that mater EMI in general?
Can You test and log with the ignition disabled?

How about something that's at this point is just dumb to ask,but here goes...
Are all the grounds in the engine management system terminated in the same place? Ground offsets can be hell.

Yep, I've already tested the crank sensor by itself, and everything looks fine.  I also tested it off the engine, by chucking up a spare trigger wheel on my lathe and mounting the sensor to test it for airgap performance.  EMI is always a concern, but I am using a shielded wire from the crank sensor up to the ems-pro, and the signal doesn't look all that bad to me.  What the ems-pro is looking for is a good clean transition from high to low and vice versa, and the transitions on the signal look good.

Good question on the grounds, but I've been there and done that, and I have all the EFI system related grounds made at one terminal strip, right next to the big capacitor that supplies power to the EFI system.

Kirk had a good suggestion on timing; I hadn't thought about that until he brought it up.  Of course running an MSD I would always retard the timing by 20 degrees or so during cranking, and I'm not doing that with the ems-pro because there is no MSD involved.  I'm not sure how to do it with the ems-pro; I'll have to talk to Scott about that.  If I can back off the timing during cranking, the engine may crank smoother, and this could solve the problem...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cammerfe

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2011, 12:51:21 PM »
As the electrically-challenged one in my family, I have to admit to running along behind you guys, panting and with my tongue draggin' on the ground.

I've come to the conclusion that you have a cracked veeblefeetzer, and if you can find a cracked veeblefeetzer fixer you'll be in good shape!! ;D

KS

FE_Rex

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2011, 06:34:20 PM »
One non-outer space question
Is the crank trigger wheel mounted with the rotation in the correct direction.  I have seen problems like yours on MSD crank triggers with the crank wheel is installed backwards.  I believe it is something to do with the orientation of the magnetics and whether the system has a leading edge or falling edge trigger.


Outer space questions
Have you checked battery voltage to the ECU with a scope while cranking?  Maybe put a separate battery than the cranking battery for a test just to isolate EMI from the power supply to the ECU.  If your cap is big enough it could take out the low frequency droops but letting the high freq pass.

Maybe electrically isolate the crank sensor from ground.  It may have a ground fault causing a problem that may not be picked up by your isolated scope on the lathe.

Where do you have the drain wire to the shield grounded - could it be picking up EMI from it's ground





jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2011, 01:02:53 PM »
I think I finally got this problem solved today.  Earlier in the week I had found out about the start retard setup in the ems-pro; there is a crank angle entry for starting in one of the software menus, and that actually sets the timing that the ems-pro gives the engine when the RPM is below the cranking threshold (in my case 300 RPM or less).  This was set at 10 degrees, which is a 10 degree retard from my normal idle timing, so the timing was retarded somewhat already.  When I was running the MSD I used the built in MSD 25 degree timing retard, so I thought it would be worthwhile to try to retard this timing a little further.  I tried it at 0 degrees and -5 degrees, which were 20 and 25 degree retards respectively, but didn't get any improvements.  I was hoping that with the further retarded timing the engine would crank a little smoother, and this would allow the ems-pro to sync up to the signal from the crank sensor more easily.  No joy on that one.

Scott and I have been discussing this offline, and the only other two options seemed to be going to the VR sensor to see if that helped the problem, or possibly going to a 60-2 wheel to provide more resolution during cranking.  I was actually sick for a couple of days this week and didn't spend any time in the shop, but Thursday night I felt well enough to go out and look at putting the VR sensor I had tested on the dyno in place on the engine.  What I found out was the bracket that I had used for the VR sensor on the dyno wouldn't allow the sensor to fit in the car, because the shape of the lower radiator hose was different in the car and got in the way of the sensor.  So, I was going to have to make a new bracket.  

I made the bracket on Friday night.  It turned out to be a fairly involved process, where I started with a 1/2" piece of aluminum plate and had to cut it to shape on the bandsaw, then after some test fitting machined it on the Bridgeport for the final fit.  I screwed around with that thing for about 3 hours before I had it right, but finally at the end of the night I had the Ford VR sensor mounted at the correct angle with a .035" airgap to the trigger wheel.  

This morning I came out and changed out the ems-pro to the one I had originally purchased.  This one has been modified with some smaller capacitors for use with the VR sensor circuit, and all the new ems-pros are getting this modification because the VR sensors seem to work better with it done.  The two spares I have don't have the modification made though, and I wanted to be sure that this didn't pollute the results with a potential circuit issue, so I made the change.  I also changed the DIP switch settings on the ems-pro to work with the VR sensor, and then I installed it in the car.

After getting my laptop in the car and hooking up the oscilloscope to the sensor so I could watch the signal along with the ems-pro readouts, I cranked the engine to watch the sensor signal.  The VR sensor is a purely AC device; it consists of a coil of wire wrapped around a magnet.  As the target spins by, the field from the magnet is attracted to the teeth when they are present, and it not attracted when a gap between the teeth is present.  This means that the magnetic flux lines through the coil of wire changes as the teeth and gaps between them spin by, and a change of magnetic flux through a coil of wire will induce a current in that wire (see Maxwell's equations for more information on this  ;D).  The faster the target spins, the bigger the current; this is a time related phenomenon, and the faster the flux changes through the coil, the more current is produced.  Since the coil of wire has an electrical resistance, the induced current will also induce a voltage on the ends of the coil, and this voltage appears like a sinusoidal waveform on the scope.  When I first looked at this waveform as I cranked the engine, I wasn't real encouraged.  It was fairly low in amplitude, around a volt or so, and the period of the sine wave varied widely as the engine cranked, pretty much like the square wave of the Hamlin sensor had varied.  

One of the issues with using the VR sensor with the ems-pro is that you have to adjust the triggering voltage of the VR circuit in the ems-pro to get the correct signal.  There is a 15 turn clutched pot, R28, on the ems-pro board that must be adjusted to set this triggering voltage.  You start with the pot at zero turns, and usually it will be in the range of a few turns before the signal is correct.  You know the signal is correct when watching the RPM gauge on the ems-pro software; you will get a nice steady RPM reading during cranking when R28 is adjusted to work with the VR sensor correctly.  I adjusted the clutched pot to the zero turns position by turning it counterclockwise at least 15 turns, and then flipped on the ignition.

The lights came on and the fuel pump went through its normal key-on cycle.  But after about 5 seconds, it did the same thing with no further input.  Then it did it again!  I looked at the RPM gauge on the ems-pro software and it was blipping up to 200 RPM periodically when the engine was just sitting there.  Every time it blipped up the fuel pump turned on, because it thought the engine was running.  I turned the key off and thought about this for a couple of minutes; I hadn't seen this behavior on the dyno.  Then I remembered that on the dyno I had controlled the fuel pump with a switch, so if this was happening I wouldn't have known about it.  I figured that the triggering voltage on the VR circuit was so low that any system noise was triggering the circuit.  So I flipped the key back on; the behavior was still there.  I started turning the R28 pot slowly clockwise, and sure enough after about a half turn the behavior stopped.  Now when I flipped on the key the fuel pump went through its normal cycle, and then was quiet.  The RPM gauge stayed at zero.

Next I cranked the engine while watching the RPM gauge on the Tach LED on the ems-pro board.  The Tach LED seemed to be flashing intermittently, and the RPM gauge was all over the place, up as high as 1200 and down as low as 0.  I went to 3/4 turn clockwise on R28 and repeated the crank test; no change.  I continued on in quarter turn increments, and gradually the Tach LED seemed to smooth out, but the RPM reading on the ems-pro software never really settled down.  However, when I got to two full turns I suddenly noticed a different behavior in the LEDs on the ems-pro board.  There are like 7 or 8 of these things, including one labeled INJ-1 and another labeled INJ-2.  I assumed that these were for the fuel injector signals.  What I noticed at 2 turns on R28 was that suddenly these two LEDs started flashing alternately; INJ-1 would flash, and then INJ-2 would flash a second later.  This suddenly made all kinds of sense to me.  I had set the EFI system up for bank fire mode, which means that one bank of injectors fires and then the other bank fires.  During all of my other cranking tests with the Hamlin sensor, I had never seen these two LEDs behave like that; they had always seemed to flash in the same pattern as the Tach LED.  

Then I looked at the RPM gauge on the computer while the engine was still cranking and sure enough, it was nice and steady at 104 RPM!  It sure hadn't started out that way when I turned the key.  I turned the key off and started again.  Sure enough, when the engine started cranking the RPM gauge was all over the place, and the Tach, INJ-1 and INJ-2 LEDs were flashing in unison, but after about 4-5 seconds the RPM gauge fell into a steady 104 RPM signal, and the INJ-1 and INJ-2 LEDs started flashing alternately.  It looked like it was taking the ems-pro a few seconds to recognize the VR sensor's signal, but once it did it started working properly.  I could crank the engine for 20 seconds and it would continue to work correctly.  Fuel pressure was on, RPM signal looked good, INJ LEDs were flashing alternately, etc.

So it looks like I've got a combination that works now, and the only downside is that it takes a few seconds for the ems-pro to see the VR sensor's signal and start acting properly.  I think that maybe the 60-2 trigger wheel may help with that.  Since they are only $35 from 034 Motorsports I ordered one, and will try to adapt it to the engine next week to see if this improves the situation.  I also remember at some point in the past that someone, probably Scott, told me that I could use the VR sensor input signal with a digital output sensor like the Hamlin sensor.  I think it might be worth trying that also, to see if maybe the ems-pro will sync up more easily with the digital output of the Hamlin sensor on the VR input circuit.

I plan to spend another couple weekends screwing around with this stuff, while at the same time getting my shop cleaned up.  Then I'll pull the motor out of the car and tear it down, to figure out how to address the water leak problem.  I'll post any further updates I have on the EFI struggles here.  Thanks for all the comments on this issue guys, I appreciate it.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 01:08:01 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2011, 01:17:31 PM »
One non-outer space question
Is the crank trigger wheel mounted with the rotation in the correct direction.  I have seen problems like yours on MSD crank triggers with the crank wheel is installed backwards.  I believe it is something to do with the orientation of the magnetics and whether the system has a leading edge or falling edge trigger.


Outer space questions
Have you checked battery voltage to the ECU with a scope while cranking?  Maybe put a separate battery than the cranking battery for a test just to isolate EMI from the power supply to the ECU.  If your cap is big enough it could take out the low frequency droops but letting the high freq pass.

Maybe electrically isolate the crank sensor from ground.  It may have a ground fault causing a problem that may not be picked up by your isolated scope on the lathe.

Where do you have the drain wire to the shield grounded - could it be picking up EMI from it's ground


Ken, thanks for the ideas.  The 36-1 wheel doesn't have magnets on it, it is just a steel with good magnetic properties, so I don't think it is sensitive to which direction it is mounted.  There is no difference in the teeth; they are perfectly symmetrical.  I don't know if it is mounted backwards or not; I bought the wheel used off ebay, and don't know how it was mounted on the original engine.

The ems-pro software allows me to monitor the battery voltage at the ECU during cranking, and there is some droop, down to 10.5V - 11V or so.  I don't think that's an issue, but your idea of supplying a separate battery voltage as a test is a good one.  I wonder if that would help the ems-pro sync up to the crank signal faster?  Hmmm...

The crank sensors are all grounded back to the same single point as the ems-pro and all the other EFI sensors, so I don't think that is an issue.  The shield for the crank sensor cable is also grounded at this point, and not of course down at the sensor.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone03

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2011, 11:53:42 AM »
Jay my brain just flashed.....or farted.
Is it posible that trigger wheel is magnatized?

With the "wisky" or mag compass' on mostly T38's and some T37's I've worked for no apparent reason the windscreens would become magnatized.For us it would pull the compass off some 10* at some heading but read right on at others.
We had a local manufactored coil that ran off 110vac(!) wrapped around a 5lbs iron ring we used to De Gaze the suspect area.The thing made the BEST magnetic screwdrivers ever!
A few waves of that thing and a flick of the on/off switch and all was well.
Lance H

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2011, 01:00:19 PM »
That is an excellent question, and I don't know why I didn't think to check for that myself.  I think I'll borrow the Gaussmeter we have at work and see if I see any magnetization on the teeth.  That could be one reason why the signal widths on the digital sensor varied so much. 
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cammerfe

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2011, 06:43:37 PM »
Jay---

Since, as I observed above, I'm running along behind with my tongue hanging out in regard to the details of your ignition problem, this may be of no value, but I have a complete Holley crank-trigger set-up for an FE, used on the Dyno for less than an hour, that was made-up from generic components. Everything that makes it for an FE was fabb'd in Roush's Prototype Shop when we built the engine for the 14-part series I did for Mustang Illustrated Magazine.

It's simply setting in a box under the bench in the garage, and I probably won't have use for it until year after next at the soonest. You are more than welcome to make use of it if it would be of any benefit to you.

KS (734 855 6532)

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2011, 12:37:08 PM »
Thanks for the offer Ken, but I think the Holley setup probably just uses four magnets per rotation, kind of like an MSD crank trigger setup.  There are benefits to be had with the 36 and 60 tooth wheel approach, in terms of better control of high RPM timing, so I'm going to stick with this for now and try to get all the bugs worked out.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cdmbill2

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2011, 10:26:26 PM »
Jay, not surprisingly I too have followed this closely and was surprised that you didn't know about the start up timing retard function. I did the same when I switched from an MSD Digital six box that had that same feature and we replicated it in the EMS-pro's software setting.

When we were chasing my signal problem during day one of the 588's engine dyno session, we had tested the sensor using our EDIS Dyno, (the wheel mounted on a bench grinder as I don't have a lathe at home) a got the same solid square wave once the connection was fixed.

Back when the sensor input was more fussy (pre-Jay Brown mod) I'd found that the air gap was really sensitive with the LS-1 sensor (Scott tells me that you determined its electrically the same as the Hamlin) and we settled on .029.

Other notes, my shielded sensor cable bundle's ground is drained at the mount on the engine rthater than the common gorund point.

We haven't checked for the wheel becoming magnatized either. BTW we learned that Ford sells a superseeded part number version of the used  Turbo four cylinder EDIS wheels we've been sourcing on eBay for these conversions. Cheaper and better availability. The one I have in the car is a new one Ford Part Number F2lz-12a227-BB, the one i used before was eBay F2LE-12A227-BC.

I'm going to work on a document regarding these kinds of installs as we've all chased a similar set of problems and have worked through a lot of the same issues. Having this better documented would make life better for Scott I think.

Cyclone03

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2011, 01:51:42 PM »
Any Updates?
Lance H