Author Topic: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!  (Read 43329 times)

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jayb

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September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« on: September 13, 2011, 10:48:18 AM »
Drag Week ended early for me this year.  Here's the story:

Joel and I rolled into Heartland Park on Monday morning at 8:00.  We got the car off the trailer and I got to work right away on making some adjustments to the four link setup, plus taking care of a few other minor items.  One of these was tightening the rear view mirror bracket.  As mentioned previously the new windshield I'd put in the car had a rear view mirror mount for a slide on mirror, and my replacement factory mirror wouldn't fit.  BradFORD had found a mirror that would work at his place, and brought it to his shop and Saturday where we did the alignment.  The mirror was from a 2000 Chevy Venture van!  I figured I'd give that mirror the ride of its life LOL!

At 8:50 Joel took off with the truck and trailer to park them in the impound lot, and I headed up to the grandstands for the driver's meeting.  The usual cast of characters were there, including David Freiburger who is editor in chief of Hot Rod, Keith and Tonya Turk, Rick Johnson from Gear Vendors who was the major sponsor of the event, Jack from Rocket Brand Racing fuels, and the Primedia Publishing support group who put the whole event together.  Conspicuously absent was Rob Kinnan, who is the former editor of Hot Rod but is no longer employed there.  Freiburger announced that there were a total of 177 cars registered, making this the biggest Drag Week event ever, and when he asked all the new drivers to raise their hands, it was a very large number.  Pretty cool, really.

The driver's meeting broke and the track opened right away, so Joel and I went back down to the pits to get ready to race.  After some last minute details I started the car and we rode up to the staging lanes, where of course the lines were rather long.  The car didn't start all that easily again.  Up in the lanes, after a couple of minutes I had to restart and pull the car ahead, and it started doing the same thing again; popping and backfiring, and refusing to start.  We pushed the car ahead a couple of times, but after it refused to start repeatedly we pushed it off to the side of the staging lanes in the grass to try to figure out what was going on.

Scott Clark was there again on Monday, and his timing is impeccable; he rolled up in his SUV just as we were trying to figure out what to do next.  He watched the fuel pressure gauge on the injector rails while I cranked the engine.  Normally when you turn the key, the EFI box tells the fuel pump to turn on for about five seconds, and then it shuts it off and waits until it sees an RPM signal.  When it sees this, it knows the engine is cranking, and it turns the fuel pump back on.  What was happening on my setup was when the engine was cranking, the EFI box was leaving the fuel pump off.  The RPM signal being reported by the EFI box was not consistent when the engine was cranking.  We'd thought that we'd solved that problem yesterday by removing the connector to the crank sensor, because yesterday after that everything seemed fine.  But now the engine was acting up again. 

Scott has an oscilloscope on his computer, and he wanted to look at the signal from the crank sensor, so I crawled under the front of the car and peeled back the tape over the wires we'd soldered yesterday.  We hooked up the scope to those wires while I cranked the car.  The scope showed a perfect signal from the crank sensor.  It just didn't make sense that the EFI box wasn't seeing a good signal.

With all the trouble we'd had starting the engine, Joel and I decided that we could be dealing with a bad set of plugs that was exacerbating the situation.  We changed them, and sure enough they all looked pretty black.  This was certainly contributing to our starting problems.

By now it was after 11:00 AM.  I needed to get a pass in, so what we decided to do was push the car up to the staging lanes, and then use a boost box to make sure it would start once it was up there, the working theory being that maybe the voltage drop during cranking was keeping the EFI box from seeing the crank sensor's signal.  We pushed the car back into the staging lanes and made our way up to the starting line.  One car back, I cranked the engine, and after a couple of tries it ran.  I finished strapping in and got ready for the first pass on the new car.

To me there were two question marks that this pass was going to answer.  First, was the four link setup correctly; would I get decent traction at the line?  And second, was the engine really down on power, or was the dyno not giving me the right data?  I figured the MPH number would tell the tale on this.  The engine when it was in the Galaxie ran about 143 MPH, and the Galaxie weighs 700 pounds more than the Mustang.  Using the numbers from the Moroso "dream wheel", this translated to just over 150 MPH in the Mustang.  I had the parachute mounted on the back of the car just in case.

This was the first pass on my new tires, so I did an extra long burnout, and held it coming out of the water.  I wasn't familiar with the track, so when I came out of the box I went part the starting line by a few feet, and had to back up before I could stage the car.  But finally I was staged and ready.  I foot braked the car at about 2500 RPM and launched on the last yellow.

I cut a pretty good light (.008 I think), and the car launched with no wheel spin and went right down the track.  Question 1 answered.  But the car was slow; I could tell right away it didn't have the power that the Galaxie had.  I stayed in the pass the whole way, and ran 10.005 at 134 MPH.  I should have trusted my dyno; the engine was just down on power.

Back in the pits I was at least somewhat relieved that I had gotten a pass in for the day, and that I finally had the answers to some questions that had been bugging me for a while.  On the way back from the track the idle on the injector setup had gone way up, so I figured I had a linkage problem and started tracking that down.  It looked like some of the engine compartment wires were blocking the throttle linkage, so I tied those out of the way.  Then I reset all the throttle butterflies, since I hadn't done that after installing the engine in the car.  Next I had Joel hold the pedal wide open while I looked at the butterflies, and what do you know, I did not have wide open throttle!  The butterflies were only about 10 degrees off vertical, but that's enough to make a significant difference in power.  Not enough to account for 150 HP though, and of course I'd checked for wide open throttle on the dyno.  In any case, I readjusted the throttle cable to make sure I could get WOT, and reinstalled the injector stacks.

Joel had brought burgers and fries from the concession stand (I love track food LOL!), so we sat down in the shade of a trailer and had lunch.  They were keeping the track open later than usual today, so I had the opportunity to make a second pass.  I figured I should be able to get the car into the nines with no trouble, having fixed the issue with wide open throttle.  We also pulled the parachute off the car; no need for that given the first pass.  Joel and I are now referring to the parachute as "The Pipe Dream" LOL!

Around 1:45 or so I went up.  The car started just fine in the pits, and Joel rode with me to the head of the staging lanes, which were now pretty empty.  I got all the gear on and got strapped in, and again the car started fine and I rode right up to the starting line, where they waved me into the burnout box.  I did the same burnout as last time, staged the car, and left again on the last yellow.

This time, I was clearly up on power, and the car broke loose shortly after it left the line.  It continued to have traction problems all the way down the track, and after veering from one side of the lane to the other a couple times I finally got out of it at 3/4 track and coasted across the finish line, running something like a 10.40 at 105 MPH.  Looks like I have some shock tuning to do on the car to get it to run correctly down the track; it seemed to hook on the line OK, but broke loose later.

Back in the pits we decided not to try another pass today, because it was going to take some time to get the car packed up and ready to go.  I took my time slip up to the tower and handed it in.  I found out that I was running in second place in the class, only .05 seconds behind a '95 Camaro driven by a Drag Week veteran named Clark Rosenstengel, so for sure I was in the race.  I figured if I could get the car to hook and make a decent pass at the rest of the tracks, I could win the class again this year.  If, if, if...

Joel and I got packed up and ready to hit the road.  Keith and Tonya Turk and David Freiburger came by to ask how things were going, and we gave them the update.  It was nice to see that they were all very interested in the car, and wished us luck.  Packing everything in the car and trailer took us quite a while; here's a photo of us getting packed, with a bunch of stuff still on the ground around the car:



Finally we were ready.  I started the car and it fired right up, but ran really, really, rough.  What now?  My A/F readings were astonishingly rich all of the sudden, something like 9.5:1 at 2000 RPM.  The car seemed to idle OK, but it was obviously running rich. 

We screwed around with this in the parking lot for a while, but nothing had changed on the tune, so we decided to hit the road and see if it would just clear itself out.  I was beginning to suspect the plugs again, but why the engine would suddenly be burning up plugs I had no idea.  As we drove down the road we spotted an O'Reilly's auto parts store, and decided to stop and change the plugs.

When I got under the hood of the car with the new plugs in my hand, I immediately saw the problem.  I had forgotten to plug the wires back into the air temperature sensor after I'd changed from the injector stacks back to the air cleaner setup.  I called Scott Clark to ask about this, and sure enough he said that with the sensor unplugged, the EFI unit thinks the air temperature is -40 degrees!  It was richening up the mixture to try to compensate, and this was why the car was running so poorly. 

While I had Scott on the phone I asked about bypassing the EFI box's control of the fuel pump relay.  If it wasn't delivering the correct signal to the relay, I figured I could just bypass that control and ground the relay wire directly, to keep the fuel pump always on while the engine was running.  Scott agreed that was a good option, so in the O'Reilly's parking lot I cut the control wire for the ems-pro to the fuel pump relay and grounded it to the battery terminal.  This way, the fuel pump would always be on with the key on, so it wouldn't be cutting in and out while I was cranking the engine, and making the car more difficult to start.

After getting done with this we fired the engine, and it started right up and after clearing a little excess fuel, seemed to be running normally.  I reset the idle for 800 RPM, but then Joel and I discovered another little fuel system anomaly.  The fuel pump is controlled by an Aeromotive fuel pump controller unit.  The way this unit works is that a tach signal wire goes to the controller, and below 3000 RPM the fuel pump essentially spins at a slower speed, saving wear and tear on the pump.  Over 3000 RPM, and it goes to full speed.  There is a switch on the dash that I can throw that bypasses the speed control, and keeps the pump running full speed all the time.  I had started the car with the bypass switch on, and the car started and the fuel pressure read a steady 45 psi.  But when I switched the bypass switch off, the engine almost died, and the fuel pressure bounced around like crazy from 20-30 psi, which is really not enough.  Maybe the Aeromotive controller wasn't working correctly or something?  We didn't know.  We decided to just run with the pump full on all the time, so I switched on the bypass switch and got ready to leave the O'Reilly's parking lot.

Leaving the parking lot turned into quite an adventure.  I had to back the car out of the lot, and the trailer is so short coupled that it is tricky to back it up.  In addition, with the Powerglide (oops, I mean C-2) trans, you have to hold the trans brake button down to keep the transmission in reverse.  The button is on my steering wheel, so quick wheel movements are hampered by the requirement to hold down the button.  Back and forth I went in the parking lot with the trailer, probably 6-8 times, moving the wheel from lock to lock, before I finally had weaved my way out and could get going forward again.

Going down the road, I now noticed a new problem.  I had probably 75 degrees of steering wheel travel where the wheel was not steering the car!  I could keep it under control, but suddenly developing that much steering slop was not good news.  I figured it had to be the result of my antics in the O'Reilly's parking lot.  We had a mandatory check point coming up, so we stopped for that and took a picture:



Still thinking about the steering, and needing gas, we pulled into a gas station a mile or so down the road, and after filling the tank Joel looked under the car and watched the steering linkage while I turned the wheel.  Joel said that the rack was not staying stable in the car, and was moving back and forth as I steered, causing the slop.

Well, this was not good news.  I sure wasn't going down the track with steering that wasn't up to snuff, and I didn't want to drive the car very far either.  Across the street there was another gas station with a canopy that offered some shade; it was hot, and I didn't relish the idea of crawling under the car to fix the steering with the sun beating down on me.  We drove the car across the street and parked under the canopy, then jacked the car up and took a look.

The Fatman front end setup uses a couple of clamps with split Delrin bushings to hold the steering rack in place.  The clamp bolts were loose, allowing the rack to slide back and forth in the clamps.  In addition, the Delrin bushings had come nearly completely out on the passenger side; the lower bushing was still in place, but the top bushing was gone.  Looking at this, I thought we were sunk right there, but then as I continued to look around under the car I saw the second nylon bushing sitting on top of the K-member!  So, at least the pieces were all there to put the rack back in its correct position.

Tightening the bolts on the driver's side was no big deal, but putting the Delrin bushings back into place on the passenger side turned out to be a big headache.  Joel and I screwed around with this for a good hour while lying under the car, but we finally got the bushings back into position and got the passenger side clamp bolts tightened.  At about 6:15 we pulled out of the gas station.  We still had about 220 miles to go to get to the next track.

Within about 10 miles the directions put us on Interstate 70 going West.  Down the road as I was driving I noticed the engine wasn't running quite right, and a glance at the A/F meter showed that as I rolled into the throttle the car started running pretty rich.  I had never had the opportunity to tune the ems-pro on the road, so at a convenient exit Joel and I swapped spots, and I tuned the VE map while he drove.  Pretty soon we had the car running nicely under all the different freeway load conditions, and I settled in for another 40 miles or so of driving down the freeway before our next exit.

Soon thereafter, I began to be concerned with the engine's water temperature and oil pressure.  They were both moving, and in the wrong direction.  Oil pressure was going down, while water temperature was creeping past 200 and approaching 210.  With the killer radiator I have in this car, and at freeway speeds, this was not an expected result.  After another 10-15 miles, we decided we'd better pull off at the next exit and look under the hood.

As soon as we were off the freeway, the exit turned into a gravel road.  We were in the middle of nowhere, pretty much.  We pulled down the exit ramp and stopped on the road after going back under the freeway, and took a look.  It was getting dark now.  I looked at the sight tube on the front of the oil pan, and there appeared to be water in the oil.  As a check, I pulled a spark plug tube up out of the valve cover, and sure enough I saw white streaks of watery oil on the tube.

So, the Moroso ceramic sealer had not held under the rigors of the drag strip and drive.  We still had at least 150 miles to go to the hotel for the night, and then four more days of drag racing.  Our upcoming drive from Amarillo to Tulsa was 440 miles.  To me, adding more of the Moroso ceramic seal to the engine and trying to keep going was just not a realistic option.  Joel agreed; we threw in the towel on Drag Week 2011 right there.

We decided that we might be able to make it back to Topeka for the night if we changed the oil and added water to the car, so we spent the next hour or so working on that.  When we finally pulled the radiator cap off the radiator I could see we were down about a gallon, but fortunately we had enough water in the cooler to top it off.  Here's a photo of the car as we worked on it on the gravel road:



Finally we were ready.  The car started right up, and we were off going east on I-70.  But the oil pressure just wouldn't hang in there.  It started off at 60 psi when we got on the freeway, but gradually dropped.  When it got down to 20 psi and I started hearing valvetrain noise, we pulled off on the next exit.

I put my AAA card to use and within 45 minutes a tow truck was there.  He couldn't take the trailer, so we pulled all the real valuable stuff out of it and chained it to a roadside sign; we will pick it up this morning after we get the truck and trailer out of impound at Heartland Park.  (I hope no one steals it tonight; I don't want to lose The Pipe Dream.)  The tow truck hooked us up by the back wheels and took us back to the hotel in Topeka; here's a photo of the car on the hook:



So, the epic thrash ends in an epic fail LOL!  Somehow, though, I just don't feel so bad about this one.  I knew it was a gamble going in, especially the part about the internal water leak.  In the end that's what got us; we successfully addressed all the other problems that came our way.  I was glad to see all my Drag Week pals, and the car got a phenomenal reception at the event; everybody liked it.  And now I have another whole year to improve this program, and bring it back with a vengeance at Drag Week 2012.  I can accomplish a lot in a year...

Thanks to all the people who have kept up with this blog and offered support and encouragement; I really, really appreciate it.  Thanks especially to the people who came out to the track to support Joel and I with the car; Jim, Wes, and several other guys come to mind.  Next year is gonna be different, and better.  I'll be starting up my "Road to Drag Week 2012" blog in the next several weeks.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 11:03:15 AM »
 :'(  Sorry to hear about your woes Jay.  "it is better to have loved and lost..." or something like that LOL!

Hell of an effort, but now you'll be able to really get the car dialed in and happy (while keeping your family happy too).

I'm sure the car will be needing that parachute next year. 
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

cjetmech

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 11:33:36 AM »
Sorry to hear about that Jay. You sure did give it all you had. That is one nice machine you built though and I cant wait to see how it runs next year after being all sorted out. Thanks for letting me live my dreams vicariously thru you, LOL :)
67 Fairlane GT 428
93 Mustang Coupe 331

KjcfeF100

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 11:44:07 AM »
Amazes me you were able to get the car together in time to compete, that's one impressive effort. Congrats!  Can't wait to see a full power pass.

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 01:11:56 PM »
I have to hand it to you Jay, you have got a huge set for even trying this....

I am a nervous wreck every time I build/put a vehicle on the road.  It consists of many months of trial runs and tuning to get it to where I can trust the new ride.  I would need a trailer full of valium to throw a vehicle together and take it for a thousand miles of running and drag strip runs.
Either way, good job, and on the bright side, with a year of testing/tuning there is no reason you can't win next year with that car!

good luck, and thanks for keeping everyone in the loop, it has been a great story.
Dp

cammerfe

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2011, 01:46:38 PM »
Jay, this was not a failure, but only a setback. It's a time-out that gives you clear until this time next year to get everything in shape.

There are only twenty four hours in a day, for all that you've managed to get about twenty eight hours of value out of each day for the last several months.

This would only be a 'fail' if you were to choose to stop here and not carry on, and I see only resolve on your part.

Good Luck!!!!!

KS

machoneman

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2011, 01:53:54 PM »
Nice job Jay. Sorry the adventure ended early but....

Hopefully lots of nice days ahead yet this fall for lots of local drag strip time to work out the kinks!
Bob Maag

corbins

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2011, 02:18:59 PM »
Thats too bad...a lot of thrashing for a bummer outcome. Fix one thing just to watch 2 others go bad...sounds like some of my luck.  Well it was a proper try and a good effort......just like the Redskins, wait'll next year!!

dieselgeek

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 02:22:52 PM »
Jay, so sorry about the goofy startup stuff - we all had a good laugh pushing the car through tech, Jay and Joel are the best of sports!


I was hoping to log on and read about your successful first day but it was not to be this year.


Oh well, that leaves plenty of time to sort the car for next year!  and figure out the power problems.


I really enjoyed seeing the effort come together - what an awesome job Jay and his friends did!

-Scott

plovett

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2011, 02:45:41 PM »
Get some sleep Jay!

paulie

babybolt

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2011, 03:44:37 PM »
Betting that by next year the car will be completely redone, top to bottom, end to end.


Kerry j

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2011, 07:12:01 PM »
Heck of a thrash Jay just to get the car drivable, I'm sure you'll get some rest and get back after it for next year. You really are amazing; it's just incredible how much you get done.

country63sedan

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2011, 07:53:10 PM »
Go take a nap for a couple of days, then put together the "to do" list, you have all year to finish the list. I haven't posted much, but have been anxiously waiting for the weekly/daily updates. Now you can find the missing horses and maybe more. I'm awfully impressed by the whole project. Good work Jay. Later, Travis.

Joe-jdc

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2011, 09:40:47 PM »
Sorry to hear of the problems that were just too much to keep going.  If there is anything I can do to help in the coming weeks, just let me know.  A set of blue GT-500 stripes would almost blend in with that paint color and look cool.  Hope you can find the problem with the loss of power, and get all the bugs worked out to your satisfaction.  Joe-JDC. :'(

Mario428

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2011, 07:11:13 AM »
Sorry to hear of your troubles Jay, was hoping for you.
Oh well lots of time to massage everything before next year.

The Magic Ratchet

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2011, 07:50:12 AM »
"A+" for perserverance! With a year's time to properly get it sorted, the car should be unstoppable next year. Better put that parachute back on!
Lou Manglass
Proud owner of "The Magic Ratchet"

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2011, 10:41:26 AM »
Thanks for all the comments, guys, I appreciate it.  I'm pretty optimistic about next year, and have a plan to get the engine back to where it was before the dyno sessions this summer.  I'm not planning on any major changes to the combination, but we'll see what the 2012 Drag Week rules say.  Hot Rod has promised to release them shortly after the end of this year's event.  I think I might be ruled out of the Modified class next year, but it sounds like they are putting together a new class called "Limited" where the car might be a good fit.

I've had a lot of fun writing this blog, and its fun to go back and read through all the trials and tribulations along the way.  I'm looking forward to starting the next one!  I appreciate the support and comments that everyone has made over the last 9 months or so, and want to thank you guys for that.  Next year is gonna be different...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Joe M

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2011, 01:46:23 PM »
Still an amazing adventure!  I'm awed that you guys can thrash like that, I'd be a nervous wreck!  Great story and better luck next year!

Qikbbstang

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2011, 05:39:30 PM »
Jay,
It dawned on me, but again first I have to say your SHELBY looks Bad-To-The-Bone. The rake, the stacks, the stance, profile esp with the slicks on all combine to knock it out of the ballpark. That said and I presume because it's such a fantasy machine when I see the pics  I can not help thinking of those vintage CarToons Magazines decades ago or the b&w comics in Hot Rod/Car Craft with the characters driving Muscle cars with monster mills and big rubber on the street

machoneman

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2011, 12:19:08 PM »
So, Jay, care to share your near-term plans for the car and engine?
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2011, 01:01:56 PM »
OK.  Item number 1 is to find a permanent fix for the internal water leak.  I'm thinking about O-ring seals at the bottom of the sleeves, on the cylinders where I broke into the water jacket doing the offset boring.  Also considering a welding option, although this would probably warp the block and make a complete remachining operation necessary.  Not sure I want to go through with that.  Whatever the fix, new sleeves and pistons for the engine are probably coming after.

Item number 2 is to reinforce the lame Fatman Fabrications rack mount setup, so I don't kick the rack loose again under tight steering conditions.  I don't think this will be too tough once the motor is out of the car.

Item number 3 is to adjust the front and rear spring rates.  They are all too stiff, so the springs will have to be replaced with lighter ones.  I will need to take a stab at this at first, and then adjust once the car is on the road again in the spring.

Item number 4 is a chassis mod, to add more length to the lower four link bracket and allow me to run the bottom bar downhill.  I also plan to go to double adjustable shocks in the rear, rather than the single adjustable shocks I have now.

Item number 5 is a dry sump oiling system for the engine.  This will give me more ground clearance, replace the vacuum pump, and hopefully add some horsepower.

Item number 6 is to finish my high ratio rocker arm project, and get a test setup out to Bill Conley and his SOHC spintron.  I really want to run high ratio rockers on this engine; it is starving for more cam.

Item number 7 is to get the engine back on the dyno with the sheet metal intake and do the development work necessary to make it work.  The Hilborn setup is going on my 510" engine, and back in the Galaxie.

If I can get all this accomplished by April, I can stuff the engine back in the car and go racing next spring.  We will see what happens...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

dieselgeek

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2011, 01:07:50 PM »
Item Number 8 - let Scott come up for a day to figure out what the heck is going on with that Hamlin Sensor/EMS-pro combination!

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2011, 03:36:24 PM »
Item Number 8 - let Scott come up for a day to figure out what the heck is going on with that Hamlin Sensor/EMS-pro combination!

Funny you should mention that, I'm working on it right now.  I've turned the fuel pressure gauge around so I can see it from the front seat, and watch as it cuts in and out when the engine is cranking.  It will stay on for a couple seconds, then go to zero, then turn back on again for a couple seconds, then go to zero, etc. 

I swapped ECUs and it is the same thing.

Next I'm going to get my scope configured on my laptop, and watch the signal from the Hamlin sensor to see if it is cutting out when the fuel pressure is cutting out.  I'll post the results here as soon as I have them...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

dieselgeek

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2011, 03:44:59 PM »
Jay, you mentioned the active eletronics inside the Hamlin sensor.

What are the chances that it's compensating for the missing tooth??  I noticed on my scope trace that the missing tooth did not seem like a complete missing tooth.  Double check that you are getting the proper gap for the missing tooth please.   This has been driving me nuts!

Also, huber mentioned that he had problems once with a tachometer that seemed to be loading the Tach Output too much, and it behaved similarly.  For grins, maybe disconnect the Aeromotive pump controller's tach interface and see if it changes anything?   Might need a stronger pullup on the tach output...

machoneman

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2011, 05:10:16 PM »
Thanks Jay and that is quite a list, even for the 'off' season! 
Bob Maag

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2011, 01:29:13 PM »
Jay, you mentioned the active eletronics inside the Hamlin sensor.

What are the chances that it's compensating for the missing tooth??  I noticed on my scope trace that the missing tooth did not seem like a complete missing tooth.  Double check that you are getting the proper gap for the missing tooth please.   This has been driving me nuts!

Also, huber mentioned that he had problems once with a tachometer that seemed to be loading the Tach Output too much, and it behaved similarly.  For grins, maybe disconnect the Aeromotive pump controller's tach interface and see if it changes anything?   Might need a stronger pullup on the tach output...

More info on this issue.  I think the problem is the Aeromotive fuel pump controller, not the ems-pro.  I hooked the scope up to the Hamlin sensor and watched the signal while I was cranking the engine.  The signal was stable during the entire cranking period, and I was able to watch the fuel pressure gauge go back to zero after a few seconds, while the crank sensor signal still looked fine.

Next I monitored the voltage on the control wire from the ems-pro, that energizes the fuel pump relay.  During cranking this voltage pulls low to turn on the fuel pump relay.  During cranking the voltage on this wire stayed low the whole time, even though the fuel pump shut off after a few seconds.  So, the ems-pro is seeing the signal from the crank sensor, and is trying to keep the fuel pump running, but the Aeromotive fuel pump control box is turning off the pump after a few seconds.

When using a carbed setup, the Aeromotive fuel pump controller turns the pump on for a few seconds at key-on, and then shuts off, waiting for an RPM signal before it turns the pump on again.  It also runs the pump at a reduced speed when the engine RPM is below 3000 or so, to save wear and tear on the pump.  There is an override switch on the dash, connected to the fuel pump controller, that makes the pump run continuously if desired.

I think what is happening is that at key-on, the ems-pro is turning on the fuel pump relay to charge the fuel lines, and then shutting off the relay waiting for an RPM signal.  When the fuel pump relay turns on, the Aeromotive fuel pump controller does the same thing, turning on the fuel pump to charge the fuel lines for a few seconds, and then shutting off.  Either the ems-pro or the Aeromotive controller is shutting off the pump after a few seconds, but in any case if the key is turned on and the engine isn't cranked the fuel pump runs for a few seconds, then shuts off.

Then, when the key is turned to crank, this whole cycle repeats.  However, based on my tests, when the engine starts cranking, the ems-pro sees the signal, turns on the fuel pump relay, and keeps it on.  But the Aeromotive fuel pump controller is not seeing the RPM signal, so it turns on and goes through its charge the fuel line cycle of 3-4 seconds, then shuts off.  

The tachout signal from the ems-pro goes three places:  to the Autometer tach, to the Innovate Motorsports DL-32 datalogger, and to the Aeromotive fuel pump controller.  You may be correct that the ems-pro's tachout signal can't drive all three of these devices, at least not until the engine starts.  The tachometer in the car does work fine, but I haven't tested the DL-32 yet so I can't say about that one.  I can say that when the engine is running, the Aeromotive fuel pump controller is definitely seeing the tach signal, because you can tell by watching the fuel pressure gauge.  When the pump controller is limiting voltage to the pump, the fuel pressure bounces rapidly between 20 and 30 psi, but when the fuel pump controller's override switch is flipped, the fuel pressure goes right back up to the stable 45 psi level.  I'm kind of wondering about this, since it will obviously affect the A/F ratio with the car running down the road, and also at idle.  I noticed during Drag Week that if I tuned the idle with the fuel pump override switch flipped on, when I flipped it back to turn off the override the car would nearly quit.  Less fuel pressure, less fuel at idle.

In any case, I think its much more likely that the slow RPM signal during cranking is not being picked up by the Aeromotive fuel pump controller, and so it thinks the engine is turned off, and won't turn on the fuel pump.  I thought an easy fix for this would be to just flip on the override switch during cranking, but it won't work; the pump stays off during cranking even with the override switch flipped on.

I need to do some investigating on this, including reading all the literature on the Aeromotive fuel pump controller, and also looking at the tach signal going into the controller with the oscilloscope.  I'll post what I find out when I have something definitive...

EDIT:  Looks like I spoke too soon; now I am seeing the ems-pro fuel pump turn-on signal dropping out when the engine is cranking.  Hmmm, back to square 1...
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 04:03:10 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2011, 05:05:01 PM »
OK, another update.  First, after reading the online instructions for the Aeromotive fuel pump controller, I found that there is an adjustment screw that adjusts the minimum voltage that the low speed mode of the controller turns on at.  Turned out it was adjusted so that the low speed mode was off when the RPM signal was at cranking speed, so I adjusted the screw a few turns.  Now when I turn on the fuel pump controller the fuel pump goes full on for about five seconds, and then drops down to low speed mode, keeping the fuel pressure at about 30 psi.  This is exactly what the instructions say it should do, so now this device seems to be working properly.

Figuring everything was now OK, I hooked control of the fuel pump relay back up to the ems-pro.  Unfortunately now I had the same problem; the fuel pump would come on at key-on for five seconds, and then completely shut off.  I hooked up the scope to the crank sensor again, and monitored the voltage at the fuel pump relay control wire from the ems-pro.  Key-on the pump would run for five seconds, and when it was running the fuel pump relay control wire read 0 volts.  After it quit running, the fuel pump relay control wire read 12.8V, or battery voltage.  When I turned the key to start, the crank sensor showed a great signal, the engine cranked, but the fuel pump relay control wire would only drop to about 10V, not all the way down to zero.  Sporadically, it would drop down to zero and the fuel pump would kick on and start delivering pressure, but then it would pop up to 10V again, and the fuel pump would shut off. 

Next I tried to disconnect the tachout signal as Scott had suggested.  I ended up disconnecting all three devices, the Autometer tach, the DL-32, and the fuel pump controller, but it made no difference in performance.  So, I reconnected all the tachout wires.

In addition to the fuel pump, the ignition coil relay also runs off the fuel pump control wire.  So, when this problem is occurring, not only do I not have fuel pressure, I have no coil output.  No wonder the engine would pop and bang when trying to start at Drag Week.

I'm going to try replacing the fuel pump relay, in case the relay coil has a short in it or something, and check some other things tomorrow.  I will post any updates to this somewhat vexing problem when I have them...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2011, 05:58:22 PM »
The relay swap sounds like a solid idea :)  At this point, vexing is an understatement for sure!
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2011, 09:49:58 PM »
A little more work tonight helped zero in on the problem.  A while back Scott had sent me the schematics for the ems-pro, so I went through them and traced the fuel pump control signal (referred to as FP-1) in the schematic to find out where it comes from.  From the schematic I saw that the source of the signal is a power supply bus called VCC-1; I didn't trace this bus, but assumed that it was powered up whenever the key was first switched on, and also when there was an RPM signal from the crank sensor.  From this bus current fed through an LED to light it up, then through a buffer, and finally to the input of a power MOSFET device.  The MOSFET was tied to the fuel pump control wire and ground, and basically acts as a switch, so that the fuel pump control wire is grounded when the switch turns on and the LED lights up.  The buffer IC is a 74HC240, and the power MOSFET IC is a VNS3NV04D-E switch from ST Microelectronics.

Looking at the specifications for these two devices, I saw that the power MOSFET had a current carrying capacity of at least 3.5 amps.  This meant that my two relays in parallel would have to be only about 4 Ohms to reach this current limit.  I measured the first relay and the coil was 90 ohms.  Bottom line was that the relays were not drawing so much current that the power MOSFET couldn't handle it.  It was unlikely that I had damaged it.  This left the 74HC240 as potentially damaged, or else there was some other problem that I didn't understand.

One thing was that the LED, labeled D20 on the schematic, would light up if it was getting power.  It was even labeled "Fuel Pump" on the circuit board, so it was easy to spot.  I decided to turn on the switch and watch this LED.  Sure enough, at key-on the LED lit up for five seconds while the fuel pump ran, then shut off.  However, when I cranked the engine this LED stayed dark.  I would have expected it to light up when the engine was cranking.

At least since the LED lit up at key-on I knew the 74HC240 IC was working.  Apparently the VCC-1 power bus was not getting power when the engine was cranking.  This didn't sound to me like a wiring issue, but more like an issue internal to the ems-pro.  At Drag Week I'd had my original ECU, plus a spare Scott had sent me before the event.  I had started with my original unit, and was now running on the spare.  In addition, at Drag Week Scott had lent me one more for testing purposes.  I decided to plug that one in and try it.

Fifteen minutes later, everything worked perfectly.  The LED lit up when the engine was cranking, and the fuel pressure stayed up.  There are also LEDs labeled INJ-1 and INJ-2 for the injectors, and they were flashing while the engine cranked also; I hadn't noticed them flashing before.  However, then it dawned on me that I had not put my program into the new ems-pro.  Could this be a software issue?

I plugged my laptop into the ems-pro, and when it connected I made sure to save the program that was in there to my laptop.  Then I burned the program for my engine into the ems-pro.  Sure enough, when I tried to crank the engine the LED for the Fuel Pump no longer lit up, and the fuel pump no longer worked correctly!

So, it appears that the issue I'm having is software.  I now have copies of both the software programs on my laptop, so I'll be looking at them very carefully tonight to try to find the problem.  I'll post again tomorrow with any updates.

Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2011, 11:28:56 PM »
Wow Jay!  What a PITA.  Software gremlins are just the worst...

It sounds like you're on the right track to check one item off your list.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

dieselgeek

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2011, 01:01:37 AM »
Sorry for the delayed response - I'm out in CA preparing for engine masters and in the middle of my own "Jay-style Thrash!"  :-)


OK, so here is how the fuel pump is supposed to work, in software:

IF you have a "priming pulse" greater than zero, the fuel pump control powers up (grounds the relay) for 2.0 seconds.  IF the priming pulse is set to 0.0, you will get NO fuel pump relay control when the ignition is switched on.  That's the only thing that controls the "ignition on" 2 second pulse, or not.

After the 2.0 second pump operation, the EMS turns OFF the fuel pump until the RPM is greater than zero (engine is cranking, for example).

Jay, what I noticed in Topeka was, looking at the LED's that light to indicate tooth pulses being seen on the Tach Input, the EMS seemed to be "resetting" at cranking speed.   What you should see when cranking is LEDs flashing consistently, but yours would flash 3 or 4 teeth then stop.  This explains the fuel pump not being commanded on.

A good way to test this would be to put the wheel on a drill press or mill where you can control the RPMs carefully, and see why we are losing sync at the roughly 125rpm your engine was cranking at.

I checked with the software developers, and one thing they HAVE seen is on high compression motors with missing tooth, wasted spark setups just like yours, is that the missing tooth might be happening right after a compression stroke where the RPM is changing dramatically as the engine is cranking (after all, the actual RPMs when cranking vary a lot, more so with high compression).    They suggested that the missing tooth period is happening too quickly so that the timer that measures the period between crank sensor teeth, isn't able to detect it until you hit higher cranking RPMs.  I believe them.  They suggested re-indexing the crank wheel so the missing tooth is farther advanced than the 45-50 degrees you have it set at now (BTDC).

Unless something changed in the behaviour since topeka, I'd focus on what I believe is the EMS not "syncing" with the wheel.  Although, MANY people run this combo and don't have the issue you do (Bill Fowler, Brian Rock, both with high compression engines as yours, BUT I noticed Bill's cranks around 175rpm).  I am pretty sure the behavior you are seeing with the fuel pump is a result of the EMS not being able to sync up and count rpm properly, at your cranking RPM (i.e., the fuel pump behavior is exactly as expected).   I think the software differences are just that - configuration differences (priming pulse set to zero?)...

What I plan on doing when I get home is testing this on my engine simulator, with the trigger wheel mounted to a variable speed drill press, now I know that the EMS will sync at low low RPMs (one guy with a radial engine cranks at 35rpm and is able to sync up fine, but it's a low comp engine)...  and I'll run your MSQ file on the same version of the box to be sure.

NOW, that being said:  we HAVE seen "firmware corruption" and I can walk you through a field reflash of your firmware.  I have seen it happen usually with a "spark event" (jumper cables creating spark, or shorting out a starter wire by accident).  This is NOT the same as reloading your "tune" it's actually a firmware reflash and worth doing.

I get home Monday and will be on this issue like flies on stink!!  I cannot stand having anyone with confusing issues, we'll figure it out.   Hopefully what I typed above can help a little in the meantime?


Talk to you soon,
-Scott

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2011, 10:41:35 AM »
Scott, thanks for the comments, and sorry to interrupt your Engine Masters stuff.  Everything you said makes sense, so this morning I thought I would head out here to the shop and back the crank sensor off 20 degrees or so.  Before I did that, I wanted to confirm that the gap in the 36-1 Ford wheel is directly over the sensor at 53 degrees BTDC, which is where the timing lead is set in the ems-pro.  What I found, though, is that the center of the gap in the wheel is about 70 degrees BTDC.  Hmmm...  After confirming the 53 degree number in the software, I noticed another software parameter called "cranking advance angle".  This was set at 10 degrees.  Just taking a guess, I rotated the engine so that it was 63 degrees BTDC, and looked at the sensor again.  In this position, the leading edge of the tooth right after the gap is on the sensor, in position to trigger the sensor.

Does any of this make sense?  I thought that when the gap in the wheel was directly over the sensor, the crank position at that point would be very close to the number entered in the software.  That is not the case here.  Color me confused at this point  ??? 

What is your advice on next steps?  Should I proceed with backing the sensor off another 20 degrees from its current position and test the setup again for correct fuel pump response?
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

dieselgeek

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2011, 10:46:04 AM »
Jay, the "trigger angle" is the angle before TDC, but remember that we configure "which teeth" are our trigger teeth.  That's why you are seeing the difference, because your trigger tooth isn't the number 0 or 1 tooth.  So, no confusion.

What I suggest is advance the wheel by X degrees, then add X to your "trigger angle" - if the trigger angle exceeds 100 degrees or so, subtract one tooth from each of the trigger points...  and take 10 degrees out of the trigger angle.  hope that makes sense.   


Good news on the EMC front, we found the source of our problems and things are going much better this morning!

-Scott

dieselgeek

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2011, 11:40:12 AM »
Jay, check out the spreadsheet I sent you.  A friend made this a few years back, to help un-confuse the trigger wheel setup.   It'll either help dramatically - or confuse further - let me know.  Fighting valvetrain probs in CA this morning, so I have a little downtime.

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2011, 05:36:32 PM »
Scott, thanks for the spreadsheet.  First I tried to advance the crank sensor, but I am physically limited by the brackets to about another 12 degrees.  So I moved it to the far position, reset the trigger angle from 53 to 65, and cranked the engine.  It may have been a little better, but not by much.  Still intermittent flashing of the injector and tach LEDs.

Then I went to your spreadsheet, and set the whole thing up based on that.  My missing tooth lines up with the sensor at 80 degrees BTDC, so starting with that I ran through the spreadsheet and inputted all the wheel decoder settings.  I noticed a couple of things:

- In the Wheel Decoder Settings box, my existing wheel decoder settings had zeroes in all the Trig Return Pos boxes.  I filled these in with the numbers shown on the spreadsheet.
- In the spark settings box, I changed the trigger angle to 60 degrees, as shown on the spreadsheet.  My cranking timing selection had been "Time based", so I set it to "Trigger Return" as shown in the spreadsheet. On the spreadsheet it shows "Spark Output Inverted - Yes".  Mine is set at "No".  I assume I should keep it at "No"?

I tried it like this and still have exactly the same problem.  Go figure...

Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone03

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2011, 06:55:33 PM »
Jay I have to ask,Would/could these set up problems cause your 100hp drop you had on the dyno?
Lance H

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2011, 06:59:25 PM »
Good question, but I don't think so.  The reason is that once the engine starts running, everything starts operating as it is supposed to.  The issue is getting everything working properly at cranking speeds.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2011, 10:03:24 PM »
On Scott's advice tonight I decided to try to crank the engine without plugs, to increase cranking speed.  First I reset the software in the ems-pro to the same as how it was during Drag Week.  Then I cranked the engine, and watched the tach output on the computer.  I got the usual intermittent RPM signal, but when it was working it was 105 RPM.  Next I pulled all the plugs, and ran the same test.  This time everything worked perfectly; all the LED's flashed with no interruption, the fuel pump came on and stayed on, etc.  The RPM reading on the computer was rock steady at 125-126 RPM. 

If an additional 20 RPM during cranking is all it takes to solve this problem, I can see several solutions and explanations for the engine's previous behavior.  On the dyno, I used a Powermaster starter on this engine.  In the car, I used a RobbMc starter.  Maybe the Powermaster starter runs a little faster?  Also on the dyno, I always had my battery charger hooked up to the dyno's battery, on the boost setting, because the dyno's battery has seen better days.  I remember seeing 120+ RPM cranking speed on the dyno, and voltage levels of up to 16V. 

In the car, I could try a switch to the Powermaster starter if it does spin faster than the RobbMc starter.  I could also go to a 16V battery. 

If I do indeed need more cranking speed to make the ems-pro recognize the crank trigger signal more easily, that's not all good, because if I did happen to be down on battery power on the road, the car just wouldn't start without a jump or a boost.  Gotta think about this...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2011, 10:37:08 PM »
Jay - I'm betting money that the discrepancy in the trigger angle setting on the software vs. the position of the missing tooth is what's causing your power loss.  The timing would be 17 degrees retarded if I'm reading your numbers correctly.

Once you fix the cranking issue and set the software to the correct missing tooth angle, I bet that power magically reappears (after all of the water leak monkey business is fixed!)
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2011, 07:51:02 AM »
I don't know, Bill, the engine ran in 2010 with all the same settings and with the crank sensor in the same position, and made the big power numbers.  I literally did not change anything except for the intake manifold when I first put that engine on the dyno this year.  Same program in the ems-pro, and same position for the crank sensor; I never even unbolted it from the engine.  Nevertheless, all this stuff has got me thinking about anything else that may have changed that I've forgotten about.  But so far I've come up empty.

I've also started thinking that maybe the reason the ems-pro worked so well with the plugs out is that the cranking speed was much more consistent.  This would make the missing tooth much more obvious to the ECU.  The scope traces I have now show the cranking speed varying quite a bit over one revolution of the engine; you can tell because of the pulse width variation from the crank sensor output.  I think this much variation in the pulse width is confusing the ECU; it doesn't know which pulse is the missing tooth, because all the pulse widths vary so much.  I'll try to post a scope plot of the crank sensor output later tonight.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2011, 10:17:29 AM »
Interesting info Jay.  I've never seen crank speed variation mess up an ECU like that, but obviously it's happening here.  It's also obvious that I shouldn't be betting money on anything...
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2011, 08:02:12 PM »
Here's a scope plot of the crank sensor output.  The variation in tooth width is the result of variation in cranking speed.  There are two missing teeth shown in the waveform,  but I think that with the wide variation in tooth width the ems-pro may not be able to discern which is the missing tooth signal:

Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cdmbill2

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2011, 09:22:16 PM »
Jay, in my recollection my scope pattern (Scott's device conneceted to his laptop) didn't show the amplitude variation I see in yours. I'm using a Proform gear reduction starter at the moment (rated at 1.4 KW) which replaced a Summit Pro-torque unit; both spin the 582/588" at 175 rpm plus. However, subjectively I get some variation in cranking speed which is to be expected.

I also use the older style Aeromotive Fuel pump controller driven by the EMS-Pro's fuel pump output. I disconnected the RPM input when we first converted to the EMS-pro as I didn't want to try and tune around the drop inpressure the reduced supply voltage would cause. The pump has been fine since '07. (not so the MSD alternator, but I digress) I used to also drive an MSD tach signal box for the factory tach which worked fine of that same tach out circuit. I removed it back when we were chasing tach signal noise. It wasn't the problem but I never got around to putting it back.

I get the two LED's lighting off smoothly as you describe in your plugless cranking test during cranking on mine. My missing tooth is set as the seventh tooth or 70* before TDC with the trigger Angle a set at 64. It started even with much lower cranking speeds when the alternator had died and i was on battery only towards the end of Monday's debacle.

Given my recent issues with fatigued connections I'd recheck all of those. My bad sensor signal wire didn't manifest until we hit the rev limiter on the engine dyno. Go figure.

Kirk Morgan

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2011, 06:25:27 PM »
That is a very bad pattern. The tops of your square wave look to be broken up. I think the signal gets better from there being a less voltage drop with the spark plugs out rather than the engine speed increase. If i remember correctly when the engine is cranking you should have 1 to 2 A/C volts at the sensor. I would retest both ways with a volt meter hooked up. The 16 volt systems are a PIA. I use a East Coast Electric alt on my race car and i have a constant 15 volts according to my Race Pack data logger. Could you change you timing during cranking to help out? Good luck.

Kirk




jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2011, 08:30:23 PM »
I actually used a 10X scope probe when getting the data, so the actual voltage is a factor of 10 higher than what is shown on the plot.  So its more like a 3.5 volt signal, not 0.35.

The fuzz on the top and bottom of the pattern is just electrical noise showing up, and given the sharp transitions at the teeth I'm not too worried about that.  I am concerned about the sine wave superimposed on the signal tops, but really that shouldn't matter to the ECU; it will be looking for a high to low or low to high transition with a comparator circuit.  I'd guess that the comparator circuit trip voltage is set at about 1V or so.

FYI when the engine is running the signal looks just like this, only time compressed and smoother.  In other words, with the engine running all the teeth look to be the same width, rather than varying widths as shown in the scope plot.  I'm pretty convinced at this point that this variation is what is causing the starting problems.

Scott has suggested that I try a Ford VR sensor, which uses a completely different input circuit on the ems-pro than the Hamlin sensor uses.   I'm going to give that a try in the next day or so, and hope it will be more tolerant of the cranking signal variation.   
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

FE_Rex

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2011, 09:09:40 PM »
Looks like you need a Schmitt trigger to smooth the data.  Have you / can you played with the sensor gap?

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2011, 10:05:13 PM »
I did play with the airgap when the engine was on the dyno in 2010.  Had a lot of trouble with that, but ended up with an airgap of .025" working up through the RPM range.  I remember that an airgap of .045" worked up to about 3500 RPM, and then the engine started missing.  That one had me fooled for a while.

If you disconnect the crank sensor from the ECU, you get a nice, rail to rail square wave output when cranking.  The ems-pro's internal circuitry, which uses an optocoupler input for isolation, loads the sensor output and keeps the signal from swinging rail to rail.  It is not a CMOS input, for example, with infinite input impedance.

The Hamlin sensor has its own signal processing built in, including a comparator circuit with built in hysteresis.  The ems-pro also has a comparator circuit, but I can't tell from the schematic what the trigger level is set at.  Again, this setup works just fine when the engine is running; the problem is that during cranking, the ECU can't seem to tell where the missing tooth is, and so loses timing "sync".

The distributor was simpler... :D
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

427Fastback

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2011, 12:34:37 AM »
I sit down and read this thread every night.Like a lot of people I am curious as to the missing HP and the electrical gremlins.I read with absolute fascination at all that is going on but....no matter how many rye and cokes i have I still dont understand a bloody thing you guys are talking  about. I'll be back tomorrow night for another dose of terms and words I have never heard before....

Cory
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

Cyclone03

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2011, 09:28:12 AM »
I was going to post something along the line of go back to basics and break the problem down into little pieces,but....

Is it possible to test the crank sensor without any input from the CPU? That said I think you have just about beat the bad crank sensor to death. Is it possible the crank sensor wiring is picking up EMI on the way to the CPU? Or for that mater EMI in general?
Can You test and log with the ignition disabled?

How about something that's at this point is just dumb to ask,but here goes...
Are all the grounds in the engine management system terminated in the same place? Ground offsets can be hell.
Lance H

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2011, 11:45:57 AM »
I was going to post something along the line of go back to basics and break the problem down into little pieces,but....

Is it possible to test the crank sensor without any input from the CPU? That said I think you have just about beat the bad crank sensor to death. Is it possible the crank sensor wiring is picking up EMI on the way to the CPU? Or for that mater EMI in general?
Can You test and log with the ignition disabled?

How about something that's at this point is just dumb to ask,but here goes...
Are all the grounds in the engine management system terminated in the same place? Ground offsets can be hell.

Yep, I've already tested the crank sensor by itself, and everything looks fine.  I also tested it off the engine, by chucking up a spare trigger wheel on my lathe and mounting the sensor to test it for airgap performance.  EMI is always a concern, but I am using a shielded wire from the crank sensor up to the ems-pro, and the signal doesn't look all that bad to me.  What the ems-pro is looking for is a good clean transition from high to low and vice versa, and the transitions on the signal look good.

Good question on the grounds, but I've been there and done that, and I have all the EFI system related grounds made at one terminal strip, right next to the big capacitor that supplies power to the EFI system.

Kirk had a good suggestion on timing; I hadn't thought about that until he brought it up.  Of course running an MSD I would always retard the timing by 20 degrees or so during cranking, and I'm not doing that with the ems-pro because there is no MSD involved.  I'm not sure how to do it with the ems-pro; I'll have to talk to Scott about that.  If I can back off the timing during cranking, the engine may crank smoother, and this could solve the problem...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cammerfe

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2011, 12:51:21 PM »
As the electrically-challenged one in my family, I have to admit to running along behind you guys, panting and with my tongue draggin' on the ground.

I've come to the conclusion that you have a cracked veeblefeetzer, and if you can find a cracked veeblefeetzer fixer you'll be in good shape!! ;D

KS

FE_Rex

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2011, 06:34:20 PM »
One non-outer space question
Is the crank trigger wheel mounted with the rotation in the correct direction.  I have seen problems like yours on MSD crank triggers with the crank wheel is installed backwards.  I believe it is something to do with the orientation of the magnetics and whether the system has a leading edge or falling edge trigger.


Outer space questions
Have you checked battery voltage to the ECU with a scope while cranking?  Maybe put a separate battery than the cranking battery for a test just to isolate EMI from the power supply to the ECU.  If your cap is big enough it could take out the low frequency droops but letting the high freq pass.

Maybe electrically isolate the crank sensor from ground.  It may have a ground fault causing a problem that may not be picked up by your isolated scope on the lathe.

Where do you have the drain wire to the shield grounded - could it be picking up EMI from it's ground





jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2011, 01:02:53 PM »
I think I finally got this problem solved today.  Earlier in the week I had found out about the start retard setup in the ems-pro; there is a crank angle entry for starting in one of the software menus, and that actually sets the timing that the ems-pro gives the engine when the RPM is below the cranking threshold (in my case 300 RPM or less).  This was set at 10 degrees, which is a 10 degree retard from my normal idle timing, so the timing was retarded somewhat already.  When I was running the MSD I used the built in MSD 25 degree timing retard, so I thought it would be worthwhile to try to retard this timing a little further.  I tried it at 0 degrees and -5 degrees, which were 20 and 25 degree retards respectively, but didn't get any improvements.  I was hoping that with the further retarded timing the engine would crank a little smoother, and this would allow the ems-pro to sync up to the signal from the crank sensor more easily.  No joy on that one.

Scott and I have been discussing this offline, and the only other two options seemed to be going to the VR sensor to see if that helped the problem, or possibly going to a 60-2 wheel to provide more resolution during cranking.  I was actually sick for a couple of days this week and didn't spend any time in the shop, but Thursday night I felt well enough to go out and look at putting the VR sensor I had tested on the dyno in place on the engine.  What I found out was the bracket that I had used for the VR sensor on the dyno wouldn't allow the sensor to fit in the car, because the shape of the lower radiator hose was different in the car and got in the way of the sensor.  So, I was going to have to make a new bracket.  

I made the bracket on Friday night.  It turned out to be a fairly involved process, where I started with a 1/2" piece of aluminum plate and had to cut it to shape on the bandsaw, then after some test fitting machined it on the Bridgeport for the final fit.  I screwed around with that thing for about 3 hours before I had it right, but finally at the end of the night I had the Ford VR sensor mounted at the correct angle with a .035" airgap to the trigger wheel.  

This morning I came out and changed out the ems-pro to the one I had originally purchased.  This one has been modified with some smaller capacitors for use with the VR sensor circuit, and all the new ems-pros are getting this modification because the VR sensors seem to work better with it done.  The two spares I have don't have the modification made though, and I wanted to be sure that this didn't pollute the results with a potential circuit issue, so I made the change.  I also changed the DIP switch settings on the ems-pro to work with the VR sensor, and then I installed it in the car.

After getting my laptop in the car and hooking up the oscilloscope to the sensor so I could watch the signal along with the ems-pro readouts, I cranked the engine to watch the sensor signal.  The VR sensor is a purely AC device; it consists of a coil of wire wrapped around a magnet.  As the target spins by, the field from the magnet is attracted to the teeth when they are present, and it not attracted when a gap between the teeth is present.  This means that the magnetic flux lines through the coil of wire changes as the teeth and gaps between them spin by, and a change of magnetic flux through a coil of wire will induce a current in that wire (see Maxwell's equations for more information on this  ;D).  The faster the target spins, the bigger the current; this is a time related phenomenon, and the faster the flux changes through the coil, the more current is produced.  Since the coil of wire has an electrical resistance, the induced current will also induce a voltage on the ends of the coil, and this voltage appears like a sinusoidal waveform on the scope.  When I first looked at this waveform as I cranked the engine, I wasn't real encouraged.  It was fairly low in amplitude, around a volt or so, and the period of the sine wave varied widely as the engine cranked, pretty much like the square wave of the Hamlin sensor had varied.  

One of the issues with using the VR sensor with the ems-pro is that you have to adjust the triggering voltage of the VR circuit in the ems-pro to get the correct signal.  There is a 15 turn clutched pot, R28, on the ems-pro board that must be adjusted to set this triggering voltage.  You start with the pot at zero turns, and usually it will be in the range of a few turns before the signal is correct.  You know the signal is correct when watching the RPM gauge on the ems-pro software; you will get a nice steady RPM reading during cranking when R28 is adjusted to work with the VR sensor correctly.  I adjusted the clutched pot to the zero turns position by turning it counterclockwise at least 15 turns, and then flipped on the ignition.

The lights came on and the fuel pump went through its normal key-on cycle.  But after about 5 seconds, it did the same thing with no further input.  Then it did it again!  I looked at the RPM gauge on the ems-pro software and it was blipping up to 200 RPM periodically when the engine was just sitting there.  Every time it blipped up the fuel pump turned on, because it thought the engine was running.  I turned the key off and thought about this for a couple of minutes; I hadn't seen this behavior on the dyno.  Then I remembered that on the dyno I had controlled the fuel pump with a switch, so if this was happening I wouldn't have known about it.  I figured that the triggering voltage on the VR circuit was so low that any system noise was triggering the circuit.  So I flipped the key back on; the behavior was still there.  I started turning the R28 pot slowly clockwise, and sure enough after about a half turn the behavior stopped.  Now when I flipped on the key the fuel pump went through its normal cycle, and then was quiet.  The RPM gauge stayed at zero.

Next I cranked the engine while watching the RPM gauge on the Tach LED on the ems-pro board.  The Tach LED seemed to be flashing intermittently, and the RPM gauge was all over the place, up as high as 1200 and down as low as 0.  I went to 3/4 turn clockwise on R28 and repeated the crank test; no change.  I continued on in quarter turn increments, and gradually the Tach LED seemed to smooth out, but the RPM reading on the ems-pro software never really settled down.  However, when I got to two full turns I suddenly noticed a different behavior in the LEDs on the ems-pro board.  There are like 7 or 8 of these things, including one labeled INJ-1 and another labeled INJ-2.  I assumed that these were for the fuel injector signals.  What I noticed at 2 turns on R28 was that suddenly these two LEDs started flashing alternately; INJ-1 would flash, and then INJ-2 would flash a second later.  This suddenly made all kinds of sense to me.  I had set the EFI system up for bank fire mode, which means that one bank of injectors fires and then the other bank fires.  During all of my other cranking tests with the Hamlin sensor, I had never seen these two LEDs behave like that; they had always seemed to flash in the same pattern as the Tach LED.  

Then I looked at the RPM gauge on the computer while the engine was still cranking and sure enough, it was nice and steady at 104 RPM!  It sure hadn't started out that way when I turned the key.  I turned the key off and started again.  Sure enough, when the engine started cranking the RPM gauge was all over the place, and the Tach, INJ-1 and INJ-2 LEDs were flashing in unison, but after about 4-5 seconds the RPM gauge fell into a steady 104 RPM signal, and the INJ-1 and INJ-2 LEDs started flashing alternately.  It looked like it was taking the ems-pro a few seconds to recognize the VR sensor's signal, but once it did it started working properly.  I could crank the engine for 20 seconds and it would continue to work correctly.  Fuel pressure was on, RPM signal looked good, INJ LEDs were flashing alternately, etc.

So it looks like I've got a combination that works now, and the only downside is that it takes a few seconds for the ems-pro to see the VR sensor's signal and start acting properly.  I think that maybe the 60-2 trigger wheel may help with that.  Since they are only $35 from 034 Motorsports I ordered one, and will try to adapt it to the engine next week to see if this improves the situation.  I also remember at some point in the past that someone, probably Scott, told me that I could use the VR sensor input signal with a digital output sensor like the Hamlin sensor.  I think it might be worth trying that also, to see if maybe the ems-pro will sync up more easily with the digital output of the Hamlin sensor on the VR input circuit.

I plan to spend another couple weekends screwing around with this stuff, while at the same time getting my shop cleaned up.  Then I'll pull the motor out of the car and tear it down, to figure out how to address the water leak problem.  I'll post any further updates I have on the EFI struggles here.  Thanks for all the comments on this issue guys, I appreciate it.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 01:08:01 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2011, 01:17:31 PM »
One non-outer space question
Is the crank trigger wheel mounted with the rotation in the correct direction.  I have seen problems like yours on MSD crank triggers with the crank wheel is installed backwards.  I believe it is something to do with the orientation of the magnetics and whether the system has a leading edge or falling edge trigger.


Outer space questions
Have you checked battery voltage to the ECU with a scope while cranking?  Maybe put a separate battery than the cranking battery for a test just to isolate EMI from the power supply to the ECU.  If your cap is big enough it could take out the low frequency droops but letting the high freq pass.

Maybe electrically isolate the crank sensor from ground.  It may have a ground fault causing a problem that may not be picked up by your isolated scope on the lathe.

Where do you have the drain wire to the shield grounded - could it be picking up EMI from it's ground


Ken, thanks for the ideas.  The 36-1 wheel doesn't have magnets on it, it is just a steel with good magnetic properties, so I don't think it is sensitive to which direction it is mounted.  There is no difference in the teeth; they are perfectly symmetrical.  I don't know if it is mounted backwards or not; I bought the wheel used off ebay, and don't know how it was mounted on the original engine.

The ems-pro software allows me to monitor the battery voltage at the ECU during cranking, and there is some droop, down to 10.5V - 11V or so.  I don't think that's an issue, but your idea of supplying a separate battery voltage as a test is a good one.  I wonder if that would help the ems-pro sync up to the crank signal faster?  Hmmm...

The crank sensors are all grounded back to the same single point as the ems-pro and all the other EFI sensors, so I don't think that is an issue.  The shield for the crank sensor cable is also grounded at this point, and not of course down at the sensor.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone03

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2011, 11:53:42 AM »
Jay my brain just flashed.....or farted.
Is it posible that trigger wheel is magnatized?

With the "wisky" or mag compass' on mostly T38's and some T37's I've worked for no apparent reason the windscreens would become magnatized.For us it would pull the compass off some 10* at some heading but read right on at others.
We had a local manufactored coil that ran off 110vac(!) wrapped around a 5lbs iron ring we used to De Gaze the suspect area.The thing made the BEST magnetic screwdrivers ever!
A few waves of that thing and a flick of the on/off switch and all was well.
Lance H

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2011, 01:00:19 PM »
That is an excellent question, and I don't know why I didn't think to check for that myself.  I think I'll borrow the Gaussmeter we have at work and see if I see any magnetization on the teeth.  That could be one reason why the signal widths on the digital sensor varied so much. 
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cammerfe

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2011, 06:43:37 PM »
Jay---

Since, as I observed above, I'm running along behind with my tongue hanging out in regard to the details of your ignition problem, this may be of no value, but I have a complete Holley crank-trigger set-up for an FE, used on the Dyno for less than an hour, that was made-up from generic components. Everything that makes it for an FE was fabb'd in Roush's Prototype Shop when we built the engine for the 14-part series I did for Mustang Illustrated Magazine.

It's simply setting in a box under the bench in the garage, and I probably won't have use for it until year after next at the soonest. You are more than welcome to make use of it if it would be of any benefit to you.

KS (734 855 6532)

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2011, 12:37:08 PM »
Thanks for the offer Ken, but I think the Holley setup probably just uses four magnets per rotation, kind of like an MSD crank trigger setup.  There are benefits to be had with the 36 and 60 tooth wheel approach, in terms of better control of high RPM timing, so I'm going to stick with this for now and try to get all the bugs worked out.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cdmbill2

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2011, 10:26:26 PM »
Jay, not surprisingly I too have followed this closely and was surprised that you didn't know about the start up timing retard function. I did the same when I switched from an MSD Digital six box that had that same feature and we replicated it in the EMS-pro's software setting.

When we were chasing my signal problem during day one of the 588's engine dyno session, we had tested the sensor using our EDIS Dyno, (the wheel mounted on a bench grinder as I don't have a lathe at home) a got the same solid square wave once the connection was fixed.

Back when the sensor input was more fussy (pre-Jay Brown mod) I'd found that the air gap was really sensitive with the LS-1 sensor (Scott tells me that you determined its electrically the same as the Hamlin) and we settled on .029.

Other notes, my shielded sensor cable bundle's ground is drained at the mount on the engine rthater than the common gorund point.

We haven't checked for the wheel becoming magnatized either. BTW we learned that Ford sells a superseeded part number version of the used  Turbo four cylinder EDIS wheels we've been sourcing on eBay for these conversions. Cheaper and better availability. The one I have in the car is a new one Ford Part Number F2lz-12a227-BB, the one i used before was eBay F2LE-12A227-BC.

I'm going to work on a document regarding these kinds of installs as we've all chased a similar set of problems and have worked through a lot of the same issues. Having this better documented would make life better for Scott I think.

Cyclone03

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2011, 01:51:42 PM »
Any Updates?
Lance H

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #60 on: October 06, 2011, 07:48:18 PM »
YES, there are updates, and one surprising one.  I have more tests to run this weekend, so I will update this thread on Sunday...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2011, 01:28:23 PM »
Cool!  Can't wait.   :)
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

plovett

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2011, 04:48:49 PM »
I can't wait to hear it either.  I hope it's the answer to the 150 hp loss.

paulie

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2011, 06:47:31 PM »
Didn't mean to get anybody's hopes up on this; the engine is still in the car, and I'm still fooling around with the crank trigger setup, so I have more information on that to add here.  I plan to pull the engine by the end of this month, and maybe when I tear it down I'll find out about the power loss.  I do have a couple more engine projects that I'm working on in the meantime, and will post some information on those this weekend...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2011, 07:35:40 AM »
Got it! We all look forward to your posts.

But, on the engine removal only later this month, didn't you have coolant leakage? I wonder about rust on your steel/iron parts........
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #65 on: October 09, 2011, 09:39:36 PM »
Got it! We all look forward to your posts.

But, on the engine removal only later this month, didn't you have coolant leakage? I wonder about rust on your steel/iron parts........

I drained all the coolant and oil from the engine when I got back from Topeka, so I'm not really too worried about that part.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2011, 09:58:22 PM »
So, after all the cranking tests I ran when I got back from Drag Week, and after finally seeing a solid RPM signal on the computer, and the alternately flashing LEDs on the ems-pro, I figured I had this problem more or less solved.  The only bad thing I saw was that it seemed to take 5-6 seconds for the ems-pro to sync up to the sensor signal and start behaving correctly.

About a week after I posted that, Scott came out from under his Engine Masters project for a brief period and read my posts.  He sent me an email that said the alternately flashing injector LEDs, which I had taken as a sign of success, were not actually supposed to appear until the engine started running faster than 300 RPM.  During cranking the injector LEDs were supposed to flash in unison with the crank sensor LED.  So, it appeared that I didn't have the problem resolved after all; cranking speed on the engine was only 105 RPM, so the LEDs should never have started flashing alternately like they did.

Scott suggested that I invert the signal from the VR sensor.  This is a change to the DIP switch settings on the ems-pro, so was fairly simple to try.  Today I hooked the laptop up to the ems-pro again, and after confirming the same behavior that I saw last time, reset the DIP switches to invert the VR sensor signal.  Unfortunately this made no difference in the performance; the ems-pro LEDs behaved exactly as they did before, which is to say that the injector LEDs were flashing synchronously with the crank sensor LED, and the RPM signal was all over the map.  Then, after 5-6 seconds the RPM signal settled down and the injector LEDs started flashing alternately.  So apparently this is still not correct; what I'm looking for is the injector LEDs and the sensor LED to flash simultaneously, and the RPM signal to be steady on the computer screen.

In an effort to help the ems-pro see the sensor signal, I have acquired a 60 tooth wheel, shown in the photo below:



This wheel has two missing teeth in a row, and hopefully this gap will be more recognizable for the ems-pro than the single tooth gap that the Ford 36-1 wheel has.  I'm going to try to get this wheel machined for fit and installed on the engine next weekend for testing.  I was going to do that this weekend also, but getting my high riser project together ended up taking most of my time (see the new Member Projects board).

One other note is that I brought a Gaussmeter home from work last weekend to check for any teeth on the existing wheel that may have been magnetized.  I did see some minor magnetization, but it was about the same magnitude as the earth's magnetic field, which isn't much, so I don't think this is an issue.

I should have another update next weekend.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2011, 08:05:15 PM »
Over the weekend I got the 60-2 toothed wheel installed on the engine; here's a photo:



I was also able to Mickey Mouse the sensor into position with a 1-2-3 block from my machine tool cabinet and a C-clamp.  Tests with this wheel looked better than with the 36-1 Ford wheel; right away the RPM signal was more stable, and the tach LED and injector LEDs were flashing in unison as Scot said they would.  I'm still getting an RPM reading that shifts somewhat though; it will hang at 105 RPM for a while, then drop to 52, then go to 210 or so, and then go back to 105.  Also played a little bit with the airgap between the wheel and the sensor, but without any concrete improvements.

At this point I'm leaving this testing behind.  Next weekend the engine is coming out of the car and will be getting torn down.  Long before it goes back together, I'll have my new high riser engine on the dyno, and I plan to run the same 60-2 wheel and VR sensor on that engine.  I'll continue the experiments on that engine, and hopefully nail down a combination that works every time.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2011, 08:47:59 AM »
Good to see you're making progress on this issue Jay.

A house-keeping tip though: this series of posts is getting mighty long! Maybe start a new post using Drag Week 2011, redux? Just a thought.
Bob Maag