Author Topic: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!  (Read 43145 times)

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The Magic Ratchet

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2011, 07:50:12 AM »
"A+" for perserverance! With a year's time to properly get it sorted, the car should be unstoppable next year. Better put that parachute back on!
Lou Manglass
Proud owner of "The Magic Ratchet"

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2011, 10:41:26 AM »
Thanks for all the comments, guys, I appreciate it.  I'm pretty optimistic about next year, and have a plan to get the engine back to where it was before the dyno sessions this summer.  I'm not planning on any major changes to the combination, but we'll see what the 2012 Drag Week rules say.  Hot Rod has promised to release them shortly after the end of this year's event.  I think I might be ruled out of the Modified class next year, but it sounds like they are putting together a new class called "Limited" where the car might be a good fit.

I've had a lot of fun writing this blog, and its fun to go back and read through all the trials and tribulations along the way.  I'm looking forward to starting the next one!  I appreciate the support and comments that everyone has made over the last 9 months or so, and want to thank you guys for that.  Next year is gonna be different...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Joe M

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2011, 01:46:23 PM »
Still an amazing adventure!  I'm awed that you guys can thrash like that, I'd be a nervous wreck!  Great story and better luck next year!

Qikbbstang

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2011, 05:39:30 PM »
Jay,
It dawned on me, but again first I have to say your SHELBY looks Bad-To-The-Bone. The rake, the stacks, the stance, profile esp with the slicks on all combine to knock it out of the ballpark. That said and I presume because it's such a fantasy machine when I see the pics  I can not help thinking of those vintage CarToons Magazines decades ago or the b&w comics in Hot Rod/Car Craft with the characters driving Muscle cars with monster mills and big rubber on the street

machoneman

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2011, 12:19:08 PM »
So, Jay, care to share your near-term plans for the car and engine?
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2011, 01:01:56 PM »
OK.  Item number 1 is to find a permanent fix for the internal water leak.  I'm thinking about O-ring seals at the bottom of the sleeves, on the cylinders where I broke into the water jacket doing the offset boring.  Also considering a welding option, although this would probably warp the block and make a complete remachining operation necessary.  Not sure I want to go through with that.  Whatever the fix, new sleeves and pistons for the engine are probably coming after.

Item number 2 is to reinforce the lame Fatman Fabrications rack mount setup, so I don't kick the rack loose again under tight steering conditions.  I don't think this will be too tough once the motor is out of the car.

Item number 3 is to adjust the front and rear spring rates.  They are all too stiff, so the springs will have to be replaced with lighter ones.  I will need to take a stab at this at first, and then adjust once the car is on the road again in the spring.

Item number 4 is a chassis mod, to add more length to the lower four link bracket and allow me to run the bottom bar downhill.  I also plan to go to double adjustable shocks in the rear, rather than the single adjustable shocks I have now.

Item number 5 is a dry sump oiling system for the engine.  This will give me more ground clearance, replace the vacuum pump, and hopefully add some horsepower.

Item number 6 is to finish my high ratio rocker arm project, and get a test setup out to Bill Conley and his SOHC spintron.  I really want to run high ratio rockers on this engine; it is starving for more cam.

Item number 7 is to get the engine back on the dyno with the sheet metal intake and do the development work necessary to make it work.  The Hilborn setup is going on my 510" engine, and back in the Galaxie.

If I can get all this accomplished by April, I can stuff the engine back in the car and go racing next spring.  We will see what happens...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

dieselgeek

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2011, 01:07:50 PM »
Item Number 8 - let Scott come up for a day to figure out what the heck is going on with that Hamlin Sensor/EMS-pro combination!

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2011, 03:36:24 PM »
Item Number 8 - let Scott come up for a day to figure out what the heck is going on with that Hamlin Sensor/EMS-pro combination!

Funny you should mention that, I'm working on it right now.  I've turned the fuel pressure gauge around so I can see it from the front seat, and watch as it cuts in and out when the engine is cranking.  It will stay on for a couple seconds, then go to zero, then turn back on again for a couple seconds, then go to zero, etc. 

I swapped ECUs and it is the same thing.

Next I'm going to get my scope configured on my laptop, and watch the signal from the Hamlin sensor to see if it is cutting out when the fuel pressure is cutting out.  I'll post the results here as soon as I have them...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

dieselgeek

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2011, 03:44:59 PM »
Jay, you mentioned the active eletronics inside the Hamlin sensor.

What are the chances that it's compensating for the missing tooth??  I noticed on my scope trace that the missing tooth did not seem like a complete missing tooth.  Double check that you are getting the proper gap for the missing tooth please.   This has been driving me nuts!

Also, huber mentioned that he had problems once with a tachometer that seemed to be loading the Tach Output too much, and it behaved similarly.  For grins, maybe disconnect the Aeromotive pump controller's tach interface and see if it changes anything?   Might need a stronger pullup on the tach output...

machoneman

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2011, 05:10:16 PM »
Thanks Jay and that is quite a list, even for the 'off' season! 
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2011, 01:29:13 PM »
Jay, you mentioned the active eletronics inside the Hamlin sensor.

What are the chances that it's compensating for the missing tooth??  I noticed on my scope trace that the missing tooth did not seem like a complete missing tooth.  Double check that you are getting the proper gap for the missing tooth please.   This has been driving me nuts!

Also, huber mentioned that he had problems once with a tachometer that seemed to be loading the Tach Output too much, and it behaved similarly.  For grins, maybe disconnect the Aeromotive pump controller's tach interface and see if it changes anything?   Might need a stronger pullup on the tach output...

More info on this issue.  I think the problem is the Aeromotive fuel pump controller, not the ems-pro.  I hooked the scope up to the Hamlin sensor and watched the signal while I was cranking the engine.  The signal was stable during the entire cranking period, and I was able to watch the fuel pressure gauge go back to zero after a few seconds, while the crank sensor signal still looked fine.

Next I monitored the voltage on the control wire from the ems-pro, that energizes the fuel pump relay.  During cranking this voltage pulls low to turn on the fuel pump relay.  During cranking the voltage on this wire stayed low the whole time, even though the fuel pump shut off after a few seconds.  So, the ems-pro is seeing the signal from the crank sensor, and is trying to keep the fuel pump running, but the Aeromotive fuel pump control box is turning off the pump after a few seconds.

When using a carbed setup, the Aeromotive fuel pump controller turns the pump on for a few seconds at key-on, and then shuts off, waiting for an RPM signal before it turns the pump on again.  It also runs the pump at a reduced speed when the engine RPM is below 3000 or so, to save wear and tear on the pump.  There is an override switch on the dash, connected to the fuel pump controller, that makes the pump run continuously if desired.

I think what is happening is that at key-on, the ems-pro is turning on the fuel pump relay to charge the fuel lines, and then shutting off the relay waiting for an RPM signal.  When the fuel pump relay turns on, the Aeromotive fuel pump controller does the same thing, turning on the fuel pump to charge the fuel lines for a few seconds, and then shutting off.  Either the ems-pro or the Aeromotive controller is shutting off the pump after a few seconds, but in any case if the key is turned on and the engine isn't cranked the fuel pump runs for a few seconds, then shuts off.

Then, when the key is turned to crank, this whole cycle repeats.  However, based on my tests, when the engine starts cranking, the ems-pro sees the signal, turns on the fuel pump relay, and keeps it on.  But the Aeromotive fuel pump controller is not seeing the RPM signal, so it turns on and goes through its charge the fuel line cycle of 3-4 seconds, then shuts off.  

The tachout signal from the ems-pro goes three places:  to the Autometer tach, to the Innovate Motorsports DL-32 datalogger, and to the Aeromotive fuel pump controller.  You may be correct that the ems-pro's tachout signal can't drive all three of these devices, at least not until the engine starts.  The tachometer in the car does work fine, but I haven't tested the DL-32 yet so I can't say about that one.  I can say that when the engine is running, the Aeromotive fuel pump controller is definitely seeing the tach signal, because you can tell by watching the fuel pressure gauge.  When the pump controller is limiting voltage to the pump, the fuel pressure bounces rapidly between 20 and 30 psi, but when the fuel pump controller's override switch is flipped, the fuel pressure goes right back up to the stable 45 psi level.  I'm kind of wondering about this, since it will obviously affect the A/F ratio with the car running down the road, and also at idle.  I noticed during Drag Week that if I tuned the idle with the fuel pump override switch flipped on, when I flipped it back to turn off the override the car would nearly quit.  Less fuel pressure, less fuel at idle.

In any case, I think its much more likely that the slow RPM signal during cranking is not being picked up by the Aeromotive fuel pump controller, and so it thinks the engine is turned off, and won't turn on the fuel pump.  I thought an easy fix for this would be to just flip on the override switch during cranking, but it won't work; the pump stays off during cranking even with the override switch flipped on.

I need to do some investigating on this, including reading all the literature on the Aeromotive fuel pump controller, and also looking at the tach signal going into the controller with the oscilloscope.  I'll post what I find out when I have something definitive...

EDIT:  Looks like I spoke too soon; now I am seeing the ems-pro fuel pump turn-on signal dropping out when the engine is cranking.  Hmmm, back to square 1...
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 04:03:10 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2011, 05:05:01 PM »
OK, another update.  First, after reading the online instructions for the Aeromotive fuel pump controller, I found that there is an adjustment screw that adjusts the minimum voltage that the low speed mode of the controller turns on at.  Turned out it was adjusted so that the low speed mode was off when the RPM signal was at cranking speed, so I adjusted the screw a few turns.  Now when I turn on the fuel pump controller the fuel pump goes full on for about five seconds, and then drops down to low speed mode, keeping the fuel pressure at about 30 psi.  This is exactly what the instructions say it should do, so now this device seems to be working properly.

Figuring everything was now OK, I hooked control of the fuel pump relay back up to the ems-pro.  Unfortunately now I had the same problem; the fuel pump would come on at key-on for five seconds, and then completely shut off.  I hooked up the scope to the crank sensor again, and monitored the voltage at the fuel pump relay control wire from the ems-pro.  Key-on the pump would run for five seconds, and when it was running the fuel pump relay control wire read 0 volts.  After it quit running, the fuel pump relay control wire read 12.8V, or battery voltage.  When I turned the key to start, the crank sensor showed a great signal, the engine cranked, but the fuel pump relay control wire would only drop to about 10V, not all the way down to zero.  Sporadically, it would drop down to zero and the fuel pump would kick on and start delivering pressure, but then it would pop up to 10V again, and the fuel pump would shut off. 

Next I tried to disconnect the tachout signal as Scott had suggested.  I ended up disconnecting all three devices, the Autometer tach, the DL-32, and the fuel pump controller, but it made no difference in performance.  So, I reconnected all the tachout wires.

In addition to the fuel pump, the ignition coil relay also runs off the fuel pump control wire.  So, when this problem is occurring, not only do I not have fuel pressure, I have no coil output.  No wonder the engine would pop and bang when trying to start at Drag Week.

I'm going to try replacing the fuel pump relay, in case the relay coil has a short in it or something, and check some other things tomorrow.  I will post any updates to this somewhat vexing problem when I have them...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2011, 05:58:22 PM »
The relay swap sounds like a solid idea :)  At this point, vexing is an understatement for sure!
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2011, 09:49:58 PM »
A little more work tonight helped zero in on the problem.  A while back Scott had sent me the schematics for the ems-pro, so I went through them and traced the fuel pump control signal (referred to as FP-1) in the schematic to find out where it comes from.  From the schematic I saw that the source of the signal is a power supply bus called VCC-1; I didn't trace this bus, but assumed that it was powered up whenever the key was first switched on, and also when there was an RPM signal from the crank sensor.  From this bus current fed through an LED to light it up, then through a buffer, and finally to the input of a power MOSFET device.  The MOSFET was tied to the fuel pump control wire and ground, and basically acts as a switch, so that the fuel pump control wire is grounded when the switch turns on and the LED lights up.  The buffer IC is a 74HC240, and the power MOSFET IC is a VNS3NV04D-E switch from ST Microelectronics.

Looking at the specifications for these two devices, I saw that the power MOSFET had a current carrying capacity of at least 3.5 amps.  This meant that my two relays in parallel would have to be only about 4 Ohms to reach this current limit.  I measured the first relay and the coil was 90 ohms.  Bottom line was that the relays were not drawing so much current that the power MOSFET couldn't handle it.  It was unlikely that I had damaged it.  This left the 74HC240 as potentially damaged, or else there was some other problem that I didn't understand.

One thing was that the LED, labeled D20 on the schematic, would light up if it was getting power.  It was even labeled "Fuel Pump" on the circuit board, so it was easy to spot.  I decided to turn on the switch and watch this LED.  Sure enough, at key-on the LED lit up for five seconds while the fuel pump ran, then shut off.  However, when I cranked the engine this LED stayed dark.  I would have expected it to light up when the engine was cranking.

At least since the LED lit up at key-on I knew the 74HC240 IC was working.  Apparently the VCC-1 power bus was not getting power when the engine was cranking.  This didn't sound to me like a wiring issue, but more like an issue internal to the ems-pro.  At Drag Week I'd had my original ECU, plus a spare Scott had sent me before the event.  I had started with my original unit, and was now running on the spare.  In addition, at Drag Week Scott had lent me one more for testing purposes.  I decided to plug that one in and try it.

Fifteen minutes later, everything worked perfectly.  The LED lit up when the engine was cranking, and the fuel pressure stayed up.  There are also LEDs labeled INJ-1 and INJ-2 for the injectors, and they were flashing while the engine cranked also; I hadn't noticed them flashing before.  However, then it dawned on me that I had not put my program into the new ems-pro.  Could this be a software issue?

I plugged my laptop into the ems-pro, and when it connected I made sure to save the program that was in there to my laptop.  Then I burned the program for my engine into the ems-pro.  Sure enough, when I tried to crank the engine the LED for the Fuel Pump no longer lit up, and the fuel pump no longer worked correctly!

So, it appears that the issue I'm having is software.  I now have copies of both the software programs on my laptop, so I'll be looking at them very carefully tonight to try to find the problem.  I'll post again tomorrow with any updates.

Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: September 12, 2011 - Drag Week 2011, Day 1 and OUT!
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2011, 11:28:56 PM »
Wow Jay!  What a PITA.  Software gremlins are just the worst...

It sounds like you're on the right track to check one item off your list.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.