Hillborn Mech. fuel injection on a street strip car??

[Hemi Joel]

I know a few guys who have tried it, but never got it to run on the street. They did the surge tank under the hood to gravity feed the injector pump, but they say the system is like an on - off switch with no part throttle. And no accelerator pump so they had to spray gas down the stacks to start it. Not good for a street car!
I remember an article in Hot Rod many years ago where they claimed someone had it working good. Someone tried it on a hot rod at drag week in 2010, but they had problems and dropped out.


Has anyone here made it work reliably on the street?

EFI is out.

Thanks, Joel

[machoneman]

Nope, can't be done and anyone saying so is b.s.'ing you. See my and other's posts from the FE Forum:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1232538622/Mechanical+Fuel+Injection+for+the+street

I'll even add that years ago, some thought I could get their street cars to run right since we raced Ford powered gas dragsters and later crewed on some Donovan and K-B blown & injected Alky and Nitro dragsters. Regardless of make (they were Chevys) it really can't be done...at least not w/o serious mid range issues. And, oh yeah, some will say a Kinsler type dial-a-jet meter (one can change jetting with the twist of a dial inside the cockpit) would work. Nope, that don't work either!

Ah, but there is one way a mech. F.I. system would work on the street but as noted above (Lucas/Bosch timed F.I.) it's frightfully expensive today and one must take the time to map the cam. Best bet? Talk to Can-Am or F-2 road racers at any SCCA nostalgia event as many run this system on their SBC's, BBC's and SBF's in the fast classes. Amazing how well they run even when pulling down to fairly low revs in tight corners, then accelerate like a rocket in all gears!   

You'll want to peruse the Lucas site too:

http://www.lucasinjection.com/FUEL%20CAMS.htm

Kinsler's detailed book is worth the few bucks too if you need more.

http://www.kinsler.com/page--HandbookCatalog--2.html
     

[fe66comet]

It worked on VW Bugs in the 60s  quite well. Diesel engines still use mechanical injection. So yes it will work with the proper setup.

[Heo]

The VW injection in the 60s was
electronic
And the Bosh mecanical injection
that was on Mercedes in the 50-60s
is much different from a hillborn
Much like a diesel injection
Then in the70s 80s the Bosh
k-jetronic came thats mecanical
continius injection
but have a much more refined fuel meassuring
system than a hillborn and a electric high pressure
fuelpump and works  realy well

[machoneman]

Yes Heo the Mercedes system (Jetronic) of old was a spin-off of the same cam driven system that Can-Am racers used long ago. Its the constant flow mechanical Hilborn or Enderle F.I. racing sytsem that can't be used on the street. Heck, I'd love to add a mechanical cam-driven Lucas/Bosch type F.I. system to a street car today just for kicks.

But it would be silly to do so as modern EFI systems like the ones Jay uses are so much more efficient in almost every single fuel & air quality measurement and auto-correcting to boot!   

 http://www.hilborninjection.com/product.asp?Id=368&CatId=176

[jayb]

Joel is asking the question because he is trying to fit into a specific Drag Week class, where EFI is not allowed, and he wants to run a nostalgic induction system like injectors.  I told him to stick with the tunnel ram LOL!

[machoneman]

Ah, so that's the genesis of the question! Good advice you gave Jay since one can get a carb'ed t-ram to run very well on the street....given that the driver can peek around all that metal when behind the wheel 

[Hemi Joel]

Thanks for the helpful relpies. I called Kinsler, they said a Lucas system is about $30K. To rich for me. So far, it looks like carbs are a better choice, but I want to something more crazy looking than a tunnel ram for an old time hot rod look, but still run strong. 

[machoneman]

Maybe a 6-71 Blower? One could probably do an FE for under $5K (less if your carbs are re-used).   

Btw, here's a really cheap way to look fast!

http://www.alsblowers.com/indexgpp.html

Wow, 30K for the Lucas system? Last I knew it was about 20K but that was some time ago. Gotta hand it to some really dedicated SCCA car owners who use this system on period correct Can-Am, open wheel or sports car category road racers.

[Heo]

Mercedes 600 had a mecanical 8 cyl bosch fi
 the injection pump is like a older diesel
with a piston pump with one pump element
for each cyl. I know someone in Sweden used one
on a bigblock Camaro in the 80s
but finding a donor 600 today.......
and i dont know how much fuel the pump
can deliver .You can port the pumps and
modifie them but.......I think the tunnelram
and carbs give you the same or moore power
The 500-560 Mercedes from the 80s had the
Bosch K-Jetronics i have had several of them
and they works realy well and easy to work on
They have a high preassure electric fuel pump.
The fuel metering is by a disc that the intake air
passes. Thats conected to a valve thats open and
close return fuel ...The more suction on the disc
the more restriction on the return fuel.
Thats a wery basic description and my English
is not good enough to for a complete description
But thats a mecanical fi you can modify for high
perf use. And there should still be some cheap
500-560 donors around

[Heo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4fJAfXYxWk
there is a description in english
The 560 is 5,6 liter (340 ci)317 hp din  and
you can increase the fuel the by shiming the
system preassure higher how much i dont know
but you can increase the fuel by modify the
controll slots and so on

Carbs and tunnel ram sound easyer and easyer???

[machoneman]

Here's a 2009 vid of 494 CID BBC in a McLaren M-8 chassis with that same Lucas metered F.I. unit at Elkhardt Lake, WI just loafing along in a non-competitive 'race'.

What a sound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBNh8LMShyE

[fe66comet]

My 68 super Beetle had mechanical Bosch, Marrelli distributor with mechanical advance on a single port 1200. No electronics there at all. Had a kubelvagon same deal.

[dubsan]

Machoneman
Dont say  it cant be done cause youve never seen it
John Bloeman drove his 427 Cobra from Denver  to L.A. and back a few years ago when the Shelby club had their convention at the Fontana track.
And yes the car has the hilborn with mechanical injection.  John is a engineer  he made it work.
 

[fe66comet]

Eight Webers are pretty awesome