Author Topic: Oil mods list?  (Read 12654 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Falcon67

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2173
    • View Profile
    • Kelly's Hot Rod Page
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2021, 01:08:18 PM »
>I hope this thread doesn't go south, somehow oil mods bring out the best in us LOL

If you see a bunch of 351C guys fighting in a parking lot, you can bet it's over oiling modifications.   ;D

>That is a key statement.  Instead of trying to hog out all the holes and make things bigger, be strategic on where the oil goes.
What Brent says - pay attention to details and just help the oil get to where it needs to be, and not too much where it doesn't need to be.  My 351C comment is only a half joke, I've run a lot of hard, fast rounds with nothing more than attention to the details, clearances, etc.  Lifter clearance, main/rod clearance, deburr the pump, clean up the passage from pump to filter inlet, make sure the galleries and runs are all clean and free of blockage, 351C special - restrict some oil going up to the cam, run the pump with a drill and watch how much oil comes up top and take any steps, like restrictor push rods, to control that.  Could be worse - could be like a Buick LOL. 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 01:15:20 PM by Falcon67 »

gt350hr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
    • View Profile
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2021, 02:25:44 PM »
  Let the "old guy" ( me ) interject some stuff you younger guys "might" not know from simply not being there> Don't be offended!!!!
  There were some serious advancements in tire technology ( going wider initially) in '63. This led to higher speeds and attending "G" forces in cornering. Engines failures were common due to higher revving engines ( again tire related) because of the increased speeds. Oil pan "technology" was in it's infancy. Often crudely fashioned "bustles" were welded onto the sides of stock pans. Hours of racing caused unsupported oil pick up tubes to break off. Ford engineers "saw" bearing failures ( IMHO ) caused by oil starvation rather than by "oil system design " problems. Remember there were NO data recorders / cameras etc. to see what the "busy" driver couldn't. Cross bolts were the first attempt to stop blocks from failing due to the new found speed. The side oiler followed( as a generally acknowledged "fix") and helped some but (IMHO) allowing a "dry sump" ( not legal then) would have made a "top oiler" bullet proof "back then". Ford's "fix" was make it stronger / heavier so the Nascar rod crank system was developed shortly after the side oiler block.
    The original Thunderbolt "deep sump" pan was good for drag racers "straight line" performance , but zero help for corner benders. Aviad was one of the first to offer a "T" shaped sump and oil control baffles / gates for serious cornering use. Shelby ( unhindered by "rules") created a dry sump for his competition Cobras and only lost engines because of rod bolt and valve train failures.
 So here we are some 50 years later making more power for the street than a full "race" engine made in 64-65 . The oil system is largely unchanged by we are doing a better job of making the power and being easier on the engines in general. "To me" increased oil capacity and attention to details like Brent and others do is the reeason it works  now . Oh and the improvement in oils too. Maybe I am too optomistic.

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1257
    • View Profile
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2021, 05:30:12 PM »

"Do I think a S/O block is necessary?  No.   Do I think it has some desirable traits, such as priority main oiling?  Sure.  The true beauty of a side oiler is in the block's strength."

So why is the Priority Oily desirable, if TO  will get you 700hp @ 7500, with reliability? And if the SO block is stronger, why would it crack, with the slight mod of oil holes as shown? Could detonation played a role in the SO cracks?

Most of the things we are looking at in the year 2021 with regard to the FE engine are about 55 years old, give or take.   Understand that in 1965, they were only 30-40 years removed from dipper oiling and poured bearings!  With that being said, a lot of the problems guys were dealing with in the 60's were because of the lack of technology at the time.

As I mentioned, oil was junk.  I've pulled valve covers off of old cores and found a heap of sludge the shape of the valve cover.

Oil was junk? Really? I ran a 8.5K engine, on 20-50 Vavoline, in those days. Many other race engines servived on that and other race oils in those days, that included 24 hr, 500 mile races and not just drag racing. Regarding sludge, that is mostly, a product of non detergent oils, driven a long time between oil changes, on the streets. Race engine oil, didn't stay in the engines, but a short time.

Lots of guys spun rod bearings back then.  It's because the stock rods were junky and guys found out to make them survive with "current" technology, they would hone the big ends out of round.

Big oil pans were almost non-existent, it's not like anything today, when the aftermarket is full of big sump oil pans.

To assume no one knew anything about pans back then is rediculous! Ted had a 3" deeper pan, with a 1/16" larger pickup and as I said, he blocked off the rocker oil passage and  restricted the oil to the rockers, off the top feed (.031).

I could give many more examples.

The point is that guys who were really whooping on the FE back then didn't know what we know now about things.  So their reactions were, "I'll just make everything bigger."

I will agree that Teds drilling 5/16, threw to the main gallery, wasn't prudent.

In reality, the top oiler oiling system isn't much different than a SBC.   As you know, they do quite well.

I just happen to have a SBC 350, 4 bolt block, that I used as a display for the products I used to make.

I went out and checked it and this is how it's plumbed:

The feed is 7/16", from the pump, to the end of the main gallery (17% larger that the FE). The main bearing feed holes are 1/4" and the annular groove, around the cam bearing is, .260 wide x .128 deep, as opposed to .235 x .124/.128, measured on my FE.

The mains are 12% larger on a FE and the rods, 16% larger, than the 350.

So, I'd expect the SBC to do better, feeding the bearings, especially since the rotating assy is much lighter.



In response to your comment about the oil pump mounting hole, I do not enlarge that passage, but only match it and blend it to the oil pump, just because it's not good practice to dead-head flow.  Just like we don't like the air/fuel charge hitting a wall when the intake port is bigger than the head port, it's not good for oil to hit a brick wall either.

And in response to Ted running hundreds of runs without cracking a main saddle, that's all fine and good.  Ted got lucky and just because he mentioned it on that one block doesn't mean that he hadn't seen it.  In addition, I make more power out of a street 445 now than he did with a full race engine.  Horsepower is hard on things.  I've seen and know of many, many blocks that have cracked there.   

Well, 84 ci is a big advantage :) I'd say JJ is more like it, 359 vs 361. 

Teds 361ci, calculated HP from the Wallace site:
11.18 ET x 121.5 mph
Your HP computed from your vehicle ET is 415.18 rear wheel HP and 461.31 flywheel HP.
Your HP computed from your vehicle MPH is 411.98 rear wheel HP and 457.75 flywheel HP.

It would be expected that after 50 yrs, you could increase HP with better cam profiles, ring packs and lighter rotating componants, not to mention the heads available today.


"Opening those passages up is assuming a huge risk with absolutely zero benefit."

1. Does that include opening the main galley to 7/16". If so, how many FE's have you seen with that modification? As a engineer, how and why does that weaken the block and where will it crack, if that mod is done?
2. If FE blocks crack, in the same area, w/o altering (as in matching feed holes to bearings) the block, how can it be said, that the alteration causes cracking?

Frank

'60 Ford Starliner
Austin Healey Replica with 427 & 8.5 Cert

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5155
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2021, 07:00:19 PM »

"Do I think a S/O block is necessary?  No.   Do I think it has some desirable traits, such as priority main oiling?  Sure.  The true beauty of a side oiler is in the block's strength."

So why is the Priority Oily desirable, if TO  will get you 700hp @ 7500, with reliability? And if the SO block is stronger, why would it crack, with the slight mod of oil holes as shown? Could detonation played a role in the SO cracks?

Most of the things we are looking at in the year 2021 with regard to the FE engine are about 55 years old, give or take.   Understand that in 1965, they were only 30-40 years removed from dipper oiling and poured bearings!  With that being said, a lot of the problems guys were dealing with in the 60's were because of the lack of technology at the time.

As I mentioned, oil was junk.  I've pulled valve covers off of old cores and found a heap of sludge the shape of the valve cover.

Oil was junk? Really? I ran a 8.5K engine, on 20-50 Vavoline, in those days. Many other race engines servived on that and other race oils in those days, that included 24 hr, 500 mile races and not just drag racing. Regarding sludge, that is mostly, a product of non detergent oils, driven a long time between oil changes, on the streets. Race engine oil, didn't stay in the engines, but a short time.

Lots of guys spun rod bearings back then.  It's because the stock rods were junky and guys found out to make them survive with "current" technology, they would hone the big ends out of round.

Big oil pans were almost non-existent, it's not like anything today, when the aftermarket is full of big sump oil pans.

To assume no one knew anything about pans back then is rediculous! Ted had a 3" deeper pan, with a 1/16" larger pickup and as I said, he blocked off the rocker oil passage and  restricted the oil to the rockers, off the top feed (.031).

I could give many more examples.

The point is that guys who were really whooping on the FE back then didn't know what we know now about things.  So their reactions were, "I'll just make everything bigger."

I will agree that Teds drilling 5/16, threw to the main gallery, wasn't prudent.

In reality, the top oiler oiling system isn't much different than a SBC.   As you know, they do quite well.

I just happen to have a SBC 350, 4 bolt block, that I used as a display for the products I used to make.

I went out and checked it and this is how it's plumbed:

The feed is 7/16", from the pump, to the end of the main gallery (17% larger that the FE). The main bearing feed holes are 1/4" and the annular groove, around the cam bearing is, .260 wide x .128 deep, as opposed to .235 x .124/.128, measured on my FE.

The mains are 12% larger on a FE and the rods, 16% larger, than the 350.

So, I'd expect the SBC to do better, feeding the bearings, especially since the rotating assy is much lighter.



In response to your comment about the oil pump mounting hole, I do not enlarge that passage, but only match it and blend it to the oil pump, just because it's not good practice to dead-head flow.  Just like we don't like the air/fuel charge hitting a wall when the intake port is bigger than the head port, it's not good for oil to hit a brick wall either.

And in response to Ted running hundreds of runs without cracking a main saddle, that's all fine and good.  Ted got lucky and just because he mentioned it on that one block doesn't mean that he hadn't seen it.  In addition, I make more power out of a street 445 now than he did with a full race engine.  Horsepower is hard on things.  I've seen and know of many, many blocks that have cracked there.   

Well, 84 ci is a big advantage :) I'd say JJ is more like it, 359 vs 361. 

Teds 361ci, calculated HP from the Wallace site:
11.18 ET x 121.5 mph
Your HP computed from your vehicle ET is 415.18 rear wheel HP and 461.31 flywheel HP.
Your HP computed from your vehicle MPH is 411.98 rear wheel HP and 457.75 flywheel HP.

It would be expected that after 50 yrs, you could increase HP with better cam profiles, ring packs and lighter rotating componants, not to mention the heads available today.


"Opening those passages up is assuming a huge risk with absolutely zero benefit."

1. Does that include opening the main galley to 7/16". If so, how many FE's have you seen with that modification? As a engineer, how and why does that weaken the block and where will it crack, if that mod is done?
2. If FE blocks crack, in the same area, w/o altering (as in matching feed holes to bearings) the block, how can it be said, that the alteration causes cracking?


Thanks for the entertainment, Frank.  Have a good night. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1257
    • View Profile
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2021, 07:06:36 PM »
Thank you, Brent, I will.
Frank

'60 Ford Starliner
Austin Healey Replica with 427 & 8.5 Cert

427John

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
    • View Profile
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2021, 01:07:45 AM »
In most cases where a manufacturer upgraded an existing engine design to a high performance application,as far as oiling systems the most common change was upgrading to a larger diameter pickup tube,while easy on FE's some engines such as Buicks and BB Mopars required drilling and tapping the block suction passage to the pump to a larger size and the fact that they did this attests to the fact that they thought this was necessary,but seldom did they make changes to the block passages on the discharge side of the pump.Even Oldsmobiles with their torturous oil drainbacks from the heads were relatively trouble free in car applications since high rpm operation was limited to short bursts,but when used in a marine application (jetboats) being run at more than 4500 rpm for more than a couple of minutes resulted in literally pumping the pan dry and the heads being flooded with oil.in this scenario the largest pressurized oil passages won't help,I think the effort is best spent getting the oil back to where it belongs around the suction of the pump. 

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5155
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2021, 05:28:20 AM »
In most cases where a manufacturer upgraded an existing engine design to a high performance application,as far as oiling systems the most common change was upgrading to a larger diameter pickup tube,while easy on FE's some engines such as Buicks and BB Mopars required drilling and tapping the block suction passage to the pump to a larger size and the fact that they did this attests to the fact that they thought this was necessary,but seldom did they make changes to the block passages on the discharge side of the pump.Even Oldsmobiles with their torturous oil drainbacks from the heads were relatively trouble free in car applications since high rpm operation was limited to short bursts,but when used in a marine application (jetboats) being run at more than 4500 rpm for more than a couple of minutes resulted in literally pumping the pan dry and the heads being flooded with oil.in this scenario the largest pressurized oil passages won't help,I think the effort is best spent getting the oil back to where it belongs around the suction of the pump.

I agree.  Getting the oil back to the pan and blocking the oil from going where it doesn't need to go are the keys. 

The OP got his question answered though and I'm hopeful that his machinist won't be drill-bit happy on everything. 

I did get up to Frank's shop yesterday though and saw him testing out his new oil gallery drill bit fixture:

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Skeeter65

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2021, 08:39:42 AM »
In most cases where a manufacturer upgraded an existing engine design to a high performance application,as far as oiling systems the most common change was upgrading to a larger diameter pickup tube,while easy on FE's some engines such as Buicks and BB Mopars required drilling and tapping the block suction passage to the pump to a larger size and the fact that they did this attests to the fact that they thought this was necessary,but seldom did they make changes to the block passages on the discharge side of the pump.Even Oldsmobiles with their torturous oil drainbacks from the heads were relatively trouble free in car applications since high rpm operation was limited to short bursts,but when used in a marine application (jetboats) being run at more than 4500 rpm for more than a couple of minutes resulted in literally pumping the pan dry and the heads being flooded with oil.in this scenario the largest pressurized oil passages won't help,I think the effort is best spent getting the oil back to where it belongs around the suction of the pump.

I agree.  Getting the oil back to the pan and blocking the oil from going where it doesn't need to go are the keys. 

The OP got his question answered though and I'm hopeful that his machinist won't be drill-bit happy on everything. 

I did get up to Frank's shop yesterday though and saw him testing out his new oil gallery drill bit fixture:



Thanks Brent. I will be in touch with you for some questions I have as soon as I know the block is usable.

Jody 

427John

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
    • View Profile
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2021, 01:46:54 PM »
In most cases where a manufacturer upgraded an existing engine design to a high performance application,as far as oiling systems the most common change was upgrading to a larger diameter pickup tube,while easy on FE's some engines such as Buicks and BB Mopars required drilling and tapping the block suction passage to the pump to a larger size and the fact that they did this attests to the fact that they thought this was necessary,but seldom did they make changes to the block passages on the discharge side of the pump.Even Oldsmobiles with their torturous oil drainbacks from the heads were relatively trouble free in car applications since high rpm operation was limited to short bursts,but when used in a marine application (jetboats) being run at more than 4500 rpm for more than a couple of minutes resulted in literally pumping the pan dry and the heads being flooded with oil.in this scenario the largest pressurized oil passages won't help,I think the effort is best spent getting the oil back to where it belongs around the suction of the pump.

I agree.  Getting the oil back to the pan and blocking the oil from going where it doesn't need to go are the keys. 

The OP got his question answered though and I'm hopeful that his machinist won't be drill-bit happy on everything. 

I did get up to Frank's shop yesterday though and saw him testing out his new oil gallery drill bit fixture:


LMAO

Dumpling

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2021, 07:39:42 PM »
Can you special order an FE block in with no cam tunnel, for SOHC use?

427John

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
    • View Profile
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2021, 08:35:08 PM »
Don't you have to have the first 2 cam bearings for the stub cam?

pbf777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 621
    • View Profile
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2021, 11:19:59 AM »
Don't you have to have the first 2 cam bearings for the stub cam?


      Generally,....... yes!    ;)

      Scott.

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1988
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2021, 11:51:41 AM »
Distributorless ignition.
Belt drive oil pump.

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4540
    • View Profile
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2021, 12:11:37 PM »
Distributorless ignition.
Belt drive oil pump.

Still need to drive the cams though.  :)
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

gt350hr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
    • View Profile
Re: Oil mods list?
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2021, 12:18:40 PM »
   Frank,
       I think I still have one of Ted's old deep sump pans. No pick up though. PM me if you want it for "freight cost" only. Looks like a '69 CJ "core" was used. Deeper than a factory C8AX pan and no scrapers on the pass side.
   Randy