Oil mods list?

[Skeeter65]

Can anyone give me a list or diagram of the oiling mods that need to be made on an FE? I’m going to have the machine shop do them while he has the block and want to make sure he gets everything done that should be for the improved oiling.

Thanks.

[GerryP]

You don't really need to do anything, but if you simply must then here are some pages from an old story on FE oiling.

[67xr7cat]

Main thing is a good oil pan. 7qt. With baffles is worthwhile. Other than that .070" restrictor to the rocker arms and open up the feed to the filter adapter. Rest proper prep and clearances. If going turn alot of RPM bbc rod journal size is a plus. The fe rod bearing size is a weak point. Is too narrow and too big in diameter.

[Gaugster]

I was wondering the same. Thank you!

[cammerfe]

I am one who believes that the origin of the side-oiler was due to weak spots in the design of the center oiler. Here's my thinking.

The very first time I took my '64 Custom/427 to Milan, I discovered that the oil warning light came on just before the 'eyes' and stayed on until I went down the return road, when it would go off. I was there with my cousin Bob, who knew someone from DST who was there that morning. We found him and discussed my experience. He said that, at a minimum, I needed  to drop the sump on the factory pan and add two extra quarts of oil. He spoke of it as a 'band-aid' and said that the real culprit was the design of the oiling path with the oil running from the main gallery in the valley, down the openings and behind the cam bearings, with bleed-off there, before getting to the mains. I built a deep-sump pan and quit worrying about it at that time.

Some years ago, I did a series of articles for Mustang Illustrated Magazine on improving the FE engine. All the work was done at Roush's Prototype Engine Facility in Livonia, MI. Jack was very helpful to me and enabled me to call a series of round-table discussions  with those of his employees who had been part of the original FE engineering team. They'd come to work for/with him after regular retirement.

After discussing oiling modifications with them, it was decided to improve, as much as possible on the significant oil volume and pressure loss at the cam bearings. We put the C4 block I was using in a boring mill and opened the cam tunnel slightly, to make possible to insertion of roller cam bearings intended for a 385-series engine. The bearing ID is the same as an FE but the OD is larger to make room for the rollers. And since the rollers oil by splash, there is no loss of oil---the outer shell of the roller assemblies have no opening for oil to leak out. After opening the cam tunnel, the grooves running around the circumferences of the openings were enlarged. Greater flow and no loss between the main gallery and the main bearings.

The main gallery is also bored half from the front and half from the back of the block. It is common to have a mismatch where they meet in the middle. We ran an extended-length half-inch reamer all the way through to eliminate any mis-match.

We, therefore, did, within the block, the same sort of arrangement used in top fuel blocks where the mains are fed through hollow cross-bolts direct to the mains. Each way does the same sort of thing---the mains have priority instead of being at the far end of the engine oil circulation.

KS

[frnkeore]

I've just gone threw my whole oil system. It was a lot of work but, all the galleys, from the pump, to the end of the main, top galley are a minimum 7/16" now. The FE was designed to be a 3/8 feed. Opening the pump to the diagonal 7/16 hole, that runs across the front bulkhead, doesn't do much, to change that. You will have extra volume to only the front cam bearing and the dist feed hole. It helps nothing else. Where it will help the most, is getting it to the main galley, at the top of the block.

That galley, feeds 4 cam and main bearings, as well as the rocker arms and all the lifter bores, for Hydraulic lifter blocks. You can open the the main galley to 7/16" with a 12" long, split point aircraft type drill but, it has to be done carefully, from both ends, in order to meet in the middle.

But, It is still a 3/8 feed system, until you open the the other 3/8" diagonal galley, at the front of the main galley, that meets the front bulkhead galley. That one, is even harder to do, to insure it intersects with front feed. I'll post a link on how I did both. I wasn't confident, at all, in doing it, without the drill guilds I made.

Ok, now that you've done all that, you can be sure you'll have more oil volume, to all the leakage at the different bearings, rockers and lifters. it's important to meter the oil to the rockers, for less bleed @ those two bearings. But, there is one more issue, the 4, annular grooves that the oil to the mains, has to go threw. I measured the rear and #3. They are .235 wide and .115 & .126 deep, on my engine. So, the flow area  is less than a hole of .25 diameter. A .25 hole, has a area of .049 sq in, the area of my rear main (.235 x .115, per side) is about .043. Not much oil transfer volume. I have no way to easily, deal with this, for all 4 bearing, or I would have. It can be done with a rotory table and a long arbor or interpolated them, on a CNC.

Because the mains webs, aren't very wide, if modified them, I would use a 2" x 9/32 circular cutter, ground .14R and cut the grooves .150 deep. Then drill threw to the main galley with a letter L (.290) drill. That would increase the volume area, to .066, or 150%.

As some know, I've learned a lot about Ted Wells, high hp, high revving, 361 Ford engine. He did two basic oil mods. First he drilled the main feed holes, all the way threw to the main galley @ 5/16". As you know, #2 & #4 mains, come close to the edge of the cam bore when drilled 1/4" (he cautioned about that) and that's the reason I wouldn't go more than .290 but, he did nothing to enlarge the annular groove so, I don't think he accomplished anything by doing it.

Second, he blocked the rocker arm feed, completely and ran, restricted 1/4" od lines to the rockers, off the main galley. A inconvenient modification but, a good one to keep full flow to #2 & #4 mains. I would do this, if I made my own rocker stands (thinking about it).
 

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=9500.50

PS
I asked in my build project, if any others had the measurements of the annular grooves (both width and depth) to see if Ford ever made them any larger. I'd still like to hear back.

[blykins]

For some reason, guys put a lot more effort into this than what it needs to be and you can go so far that you will weaken the block.   I've seen numerous FE blocks that are cracked through every main where someone along the way had completed "oil mods". 

The biggest oil mods I do are:

1.  Tap all the gallery plugs for screw in plugs.
2.  Blend in the oil pump mounting hole.
3.  If you're using race bearings such as a Federal Mogul or similar, very lightly blend the saddle hole back to meet the bearing hole on the #2 and #4 main saddle. 
4.  Restrict oil to the top end where applicable. 
5.  Run correct bearing clearances for the mains, rods, and camshaft according to your application.

Based on my experience, nothing else needs to be done at all and there are a lot of things that can damage the integrity of the block.  I will vouch that these mods alone will support 700 hp and 7500 rpm. 

The origin of a lot of these "oil mods" stem from decades ago when oil pan designs stunk, oils stunk, and aftermarket rods were few and far between. 

I completely disagree with drilling and opening up the main saddles.   Please DO NOT ask your machinist to drill anything out.  It's completely unnecessary and is a good way to cause yourself some issues down the road.   FE blocks are known to split in between the mains and cam.   Don't do anything to help it along.  If I were to get a block in here with all these extra drilling procedures completed, it would quickly leave without becoming a completed engine.

[My427stang]

I hope this thread doesn't go south, somehow oil mods bring out the best in us LOL 

This really isn't a question about HOW to get volume though, it's closer to do you NEED to get more volume and where does the risk shift to?  In my opinion, a well prepped block, in this case meaning: straight main bore, straight crank, and balanced with proper crush and clearances,  just doesn't need more than Brent's 5, assuming there isn't some sort of casting flash or an old push-in plug jammed in there (both I have seen)

Trying not to pick a side, but I would advise anyone that came to me to follow the 5 listed above, it's also what I do.  The risk/reward math isn't worth it to me, especially if a block with any value.  I also wholeheartedly agree with Brent on the mains.  FE blocks are known to crack in the saddles when drilled, heck, some crack in the main bolt threads UNdrilled. I would not do more than an easy chamfer, and only if needed.  As far as PSE-like modifications to push oil through the side, they also scare me because I really want the weight bearing part of the mains to be as strong as they can be, the cross bolt is likely plenty strong, but working the cap seems to be counter-intuitive. 

Remember, this isn't a low pressure cutting oil feed, it is a 65-80psi feed, there is a ton of oil through small holes.  As Brent said, bad pans, crappy oil, marginal machining, I just hate to see people carving on things without a very purposeful reason

One other point, some machinists are sharp, some march to a different tune.  I am down to a single real good one, so I'd be leery of going to a knife edge with the average guy and a block with core shift.  It's one of those "will it work if I don't?" questions, and if the answer is yes, DON'T 

FYI, I did some quick research on Ted Wells, stories overlap, but seems like he was sharp and pretty fast for his time.  However, at some point, he switched from the 361/352 (depending on source) to a destroked 427 at 397 inches.  They claim he launched at 8300 RPM and broke pinion gears out of 9 inches, (no surprise if he launched that high) and ran 10.70s with the car, but I can't tell which engine and any specifics on the car when it ran that fast.  If the stories are true and he was 3800 lbs, he was making 600+ HP, so I really doubt it was 10.70s with the 361

I'd be interested to hear more specific details if the exist, to include what he was trying to correct and what led him to that.  Don't forget adding all the flow, and spinning that high, likely required something different for a pump and supply side work, likely a dual inlet Milodon or Moroso cover at least, whoever made those back then, and of course when you open up one feed, you lose volume at another, there is no free chicken.

In the end though, I haven't had a lick of issues on many FEs using similar to Brent's.

[Rory428]

Can anyone give me a list or diagram of the oiling mods that need to be made on an FE? I’m going to have the machine shop do them while he has the block and want to make sure he gets everything done that should be for the improved oiling.

Thanks.

What is the intended purpose for the engine, and how it will be used? A near stock build really needs nothing done to the block for oiling, after all, it has already lasted over 50 years, right?  Depending on the HP level and RPM, some mods are a good idea, but what Brent has listed are about I would do , unless it`s some 8500 RPM high power Super Stock or similar build, then I would ask somebody like Blair that specializes in such engines. Like Brent said, the risk of splitting the main webbing in the block outweighs any perceived benefit from drilling out the main feed holes. Since having one of my 428 drag engines split the #2 & 4 main webbing between the crank and cam bores, I don`t even  open up the oil feed holes to match the main bearings anymore. On my block, the cracks went directly thru the oil feed holes, where I had radiused them.

[frnkeore]

FYI, I did some quick research on Ted Wells, stories overlap, but seems like he was sharp and pretty fast for his time.  However, at some point, he switched from the 361/352 (depending on source) to a destroked 427 at 397 inches.  They claim he launched at 8300 RPM and broke pinion gears out of 9 inches, (no surprise if he launched that high) and ran 10.70s with the car, but I can't tell which engine and any specifics on the car when it ran that fast.  If the stories are true and he was 3800 lbs, he was making 600+ HP, so I really doubt it was 10.70s with the 361

The info I have on Ted, is out of his own mouth, in a feature, CC magazine article. He ran 11.18/121.46 with the 361, in a 3200 lb car. He ran the 10.70 with the 396, no mph given. The '54 Ford Mainline (base model), is a fairly light car. With a 6 cyl engine, the curb weight is 3070. That's one of the reason I wanted one. Their weight would be in the '64 Fairlane region, with a FE installed. I believe the 3270 lb cited was with driver, as he had a fiberglass bumper, hood and fenders.

As to it said that drilling or matching the holes in the main saddles, causes cracking. While Brent says he has seen "lots" of it and Rory documents his, others say it has happened w/o any modifications. Only a objective investigation would tell what's happening. Regardless of Brent saying he can get 700 hp, with a standard FE block, Ford didn't create the side oiler for no reason. Does anyone think the side oiler is worth nothing or Ford wasted their time and money making them? In those days, Ford had one of the best high performance and pure race, engineering teams, of all time!

Back to Teds engine. I do not recommend drilling the main feeds to 5/16", at all. Increasing them any amount, won't increase oil flow to the mains, w/o increasing the annular grooves width or depth. But, if what is being said, weakens all blocks, he would have lost oil pressure, soon after doing it, since it puts the edge of the hole, very close to the edge of the main web. He used 5/32 rings, gaped .019, with Forge True, 12.25 CR pistons and a quote from him is, "I can make 150 to 200 runs, with these rings, before I get serious blow by" so, he ran it a LOT w/o issue. Here we have, with Rory's block, a minor mod, with a crack and Ted's a major mod, w/o a crack.

The bearing matching has been going on many years and has been fine, in most all blocks. It for sure, doesn't crack any block it's done to. Ted's mod is unusual and much more radical but, his block, didn't crack. So, this is not a settled issue. I do this stuff, because I can and if you have a 3/8 orifice at any point, that's where the flow is maxed out and there is no need to open anything on a FE, including the oil pump mount, as the front main and dist oiling won't even improve and 90% of the oiling comes after that, in a 3/8" feed. Even blending mismatches, won't do much if anything to help flow.

[allrightmike]

Should the length of the oil passage in question be considered when calculating flow volume as will as diameter? example; easy to blow through a foot of garden hose and very difficult with a 30 ft. length.

[blykins]

FYI, I did some quick research on Ted Wells, stories overlap, but seems like he was sharp and pretty fast for his time.  However, at some point, he switched from the 361/352 (depending on source) to a destroked 427 at 397 inches.  They claim he launched at 8300 RPM and broke pinion gears out of 9 inches, (no surprise if he launched that high) and ran 10.70s with the car, but I can't tell which engine and any specifics on the car when it ran that fast.  If the stories are true and he was 3800 lbs, he was making 600+ HP, so I really doubt it was 10.70s with the 361

The info I have on Ted, is out of his own mouth, in a feature, CC magazine article. He ran 11.18/121.46 with the 361, in a 3200 lb car. He ran the 10.70 with the 396, no mph given. The '54 Ford Mainline (base model), is a fairly light car. With a 6 cyl engine, the curb weight is 3070. That's one of the reason I wanted one. Their weight would be in the '64 Fairlane region, with a FE installed. I believe the 3270 lb cited was with driver, as he had a fiberglass bumper, hood and fenders.

As to it said that drilling or matching the holes in the main saddles, causes cracking. While Brent says he has seen "lots" of it and Rory documents his, others say it has happened w/o any modifications. Only a objective investigation would tell what's happening. Regardless of Brent saying he can get 700 hp, with a standard FE block, Ford didn't create the side oiler for no reason. Does anyone think the side oiler is worth nothing or Ford wasted their time and money making them? In those days, Ford had one of the best high performance and pure race, engineering teams, of all time!

Back to Teds engine. I do not recommend drilling the main feeds to 5/16", at all. Increasing them any amount, won't increase oil flow to the mains, w/o increasing the annular grooves width or depth. But, if what is being said, weakens all blocks, he would have lost oil pressure, soon after doing it, since it puts the edge of the hole, very close to the edge of the main web. He used 5/32 rings, gaped .019, with Forge True, 12.25 CR pistons and a quote from him is, "I can make 150 to 200 runs, with these rings, before I get serious blow by" so, he ran it a LOT w/o issue. Here we have, with Rory's block, a minor mod, with a crack and Ted's a major mod, w/o a crack.

The bearing matching has been going on many years and has been fine, in most all blocks. It for sure, doesn't crack any block it's done to. Ted's mod is unusual and much more radical but, his block, didn't crack. So, this is not a settled issue. I do this stuff, because I can and if you have a 3/8 orifice at any point, that's where the flow is maxed out and there is no need to open anything on a FE, including the oil pump mount, as the front main and dist oiling won't even improve and 90% of the oiling comes after that, in a 3/8" feed. Even blending mismatches, won't do much if anything to help flow.

Do I think a S/O block is necessary?  No.   Do I think it has some desirable traits, such as priority main oiling?  Sure.  The true beauty of a side oiler is in the block's strength. 

Most of the things we are looking at in the year 2021 with regard to the FE engine are about 55 years old, give or take.   Understand that in 1965, they were only 30-40 years removed from dipper oiling and poured bearings!  With that being said, a lot of the problems guys were dealing with in the 60's were because of the lack of technology at the time. 

As I mentioned, oil was junk.  I've pulled valve covers off of old cores and found a heap of sludge the shape of the valve cover. 

Lots of guys spun rod bearings back then.  It's because the stock rods were junky and guys found out to make them survive with "current" technology, they would hone the big ends out of round. 

Big oil pans were almost non-existent, it's not like anything today, when the aftermarket is full of big sump oil pans. 

I could give many more examples. 

The point is that guys who were really whooping on the FE back then didn't know what we know now about things.  So their reactions were, "I'll just make everything bigger."

In reality, the top oiler oiling system isn't much different than a SBC.   As you know, they do quite well. 

In response to your comment about the oil pump mounting hole, I do not enlarge that passage, but only match it and blend it to the oil pump, just because it's not good practice to dead-head flow.  Just like we don't like the air/fuel charge hitting a wall when the intake port is bigger than the head port, it's not good for oil to hit a brick wall either. 

And in response to Ted running hundreds of runs without cracking a main saddle, that's all fine and good.  Ted got lucky and just because he mentioned it on that one block doesn't mean that he hadn't seen it.  In addition, I make more power out of a street 445 now than he did with a full race engine.  Horsepower is hard on things.  I've seen and know of many, many blocks that have cracked there.   Opening those passages up is assuming a huge risk with absolutely zero benefit. 

[Rory428]

Frank, I split my 428 block about 10-12 years ago, Ted Wells was racing his car in the late 60s-early 70s. 35 years of use would likely contribute to block streses, wouldn`t you think? Also, I was running a 428 crank, which obviously has much longer stroke, plus was externally balanced, so more stress on the much older block as well. Also, I ran that particular 428 for over 12 years, with a stick, I wouldn`t be suprised if my 428 had a lot more runs than Wells 352 did.

[blykins]

Standard bore 427 side oiler....cracked through the middle 3 mains, originating from the feed holes.   One of my customer's brought this block in for a Tunnel Port build.  He had saved this block for years.  When we got it cleaned up, the cracks were very apparent.


 

[Yellow Truck]

Standard bore 427 side oiler....cracked through the middle 3 mains, originating from the feed holes.   One of my customer's brought this block in for a Tunnel Port build.  He had saved this block for years.  When we got it cleaned up, the cracks were very apparent.


 

That is such a sad post. I would be gutted if that happened to me, especially after planning and hoping for all those years.

In any case, a great thread and typical of the conversations on this forum. With what I have learned here in the past 4 years since I built my first I think I may have to build a second! Just need car for it.