Author Topic: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter  (Read 3631 times)

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Thumperbird

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To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« on: January 18, 2021, 01:55:09 PM »
Wondering what you all think these days in terms of running an FE once or twice over the course of winter?
I ran my stroker the other day for 30 minutes or so, used to do it way back in the day with an old 390 I had.
Waited for a bit warmer day (low 30's) just to make it easier, no chokes on the twins make it a bit fussy for the first minute or so.

Do you guys run your stuff at all?  Worth it or not, harmful?

Just curious what others think on these dog days of a covid winter.

Thanks.

plovett

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2021, 01:58:55 PM »
I think it is worth it if you can run it for an extended period of time.  Can you take a 30 minute trip?  That would be ideal to get things used, lubed, and the moisture burned out. 

paulie

Barry_R

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2021, 02:17:21 PM »
I run mine for 30 minutes or so every couple weeks.
Wait for a day when the weather is at least into the 30s...

RJP

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2021, 02:20:26 PM »
Paulie nailed it. Just running it in the shop/garage will not allow the engine to build enough heat to burn off the moisture created by just firing the engine and letting it idle or even at high idle. The engine needs to be under load for it to fully warm up. If you live in an area thats gets damn cold I believe it would be better to just wait until you can drive the car as other components besides the engine will benefit by driving it for an extended period.  A good freeway romp for 15-20 miles [or more] at 60-70 mph would be what I would try for.  I live in an area that seldom get colder than about 40 F so I leave the cars in the shop until I can put some miles on each of them. each drive is about 10-12 miles one way and the on-ramp I use for my return trip allows for a good 5k+ rpm romp going thru the gears getting up to speed... It is a long on-ramp ;)

Heo

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2021, 05:30:54 PM »
Take mine out for a run now and then when they have not salted the roads
Drove it for a daily driver last winter well into Febuari sometimes -30 centigrades
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rpsq4aTkl8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHH-LxbMTrI
The key is to run it so the oil get up to temperature to vapor of the water from
condensation

« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 05:32:37 PM by Heo »



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machoneman

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2021, 05:44:35 PM »
Salt is the killer, Here in suburban Chicago, we were salt-free until the first 'big' snowfall although it ended up being only about 2-3 inches. Point is, from then on, our streets and highway are Mortonized (Morton Salt) for the duration. The cars never leave the garage thereafter.

I spin the engine over a few times to relieve spring pressure/oil the top end a tad. Start both up once in awhile for an easy 20+ minutes. Agree though they don't get nearly as hot as I'd like. The Moroso oil pan heater works well on the '70 Stang for fast starts. The '88 Fox 5.0 is just started up and left to run.

Spring can NEVER come fast enough here!
Bob Maag

Heo

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2021, 06:11:19 PM »
When it is cold enough the salt just makes it freeze harder and more slippery
and they just salt the highway so when it is a nice winter day i sometimes go for a ride
on the small backroads otherwise i store it in a heated garage




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Gaugster

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2021, 06:27:10 PM »
Run them if you have time to get the oil temp over the boiling point of water. Like above, I'm in the suburbs of Chicago and once the salt hits I don't even consider driving around. Occasionally we'll have a rainy winter that washes any salt away but those are the exception.
John - '68 Cougar XR7 390 FE (X-Code) 6R80 AUTO

hvywrench

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2021, 06:42:45 PM »
I have my highboy pickup on jackstands in the garage for the winter and about once a month I'll start it and let it run in 4x4 for about a half hour. Did it yesterday, actually.
It comes up to 180 water temp, but not hot enough to burn off the bad stuff like a good drive would do.
I do it mostly to keep the driveline and auto trans lubricated and keep everything splashed in oil.

GerryP

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2021, 07:52:49 PM »
I read about getting the engine hot enough to boil off water and contaminants in the oil.  I used to take that at face value in spite of things I knew that were different from that.  First, if you keep ice in your freezer, you might notice that the ice cubes shrink.  That is sublimation, where the ice cube is evaporating without changing state to a liquid.  If you put a glass of water on the counter and check on it day to day, you'll notice the height of the water is going down.  It's evaporating.  I am also aware that when it comes to humidity, the hotter the air, the more water it can hold.

From those observations, I determined that you don't need 212-degrees (100c) at sea level for water in any state to evaporate.  It happens in the frigid environs of you freezer, on your counter top, and in your oil pan.  The water won't emulsify in the oil pan.  It will separate out.  In the immediate, if there is some abnormally high amount of water, it will sink to the bottom of the oil pan, but through evaporation, it will migrate through the oil, into the space above and out to atmosphere.  I've read where the combustion byproducts can mix with water and form acids that can eat engine bearings.  I've never read how that happens.  And it's not because I haven't looked.  Maybe it is out there somewhere.  I know water can't mix with gas, oil, or other petroleum products, so I don't know what that water is mixing with that forms an acid.  And water can't turn into something else unless it's subjected to a lot of heat and pressure.  And the water won't displace oil that might be in place with a hydrodynamic bearing.  I don't know, but it just doesn't seem necessary to get the engine fully up to temperature and operating that way long enough for something to occur.

I have a car that I don't drive but maybe once every couple of weeks for five or 10 miles or so.  It's a 2008 Saturn Sky Red Line.  I've owned it since new.  I had a Blackstone oil analysis done last year out of curiosity.  It showed a tiny trace of fuel.  Absolutely nothing to be concerned over.  No water.  No antifreeze.  No insoluables, like soot.  I can post that report up if you'd like just so you can see for yourself.  My point being that this is a car that by Internet knowledge should be all blowed up because I'm not doing anything the Internet says I should be doing.  I don't run it long enough, or hard enough to purge all that nastiness out of the crankcase.

I would add that the real downside to just running the engine in the garage when it could be out on the road is that it won't put a smile on your face.  Okay, you want to avoid salt.  And yes, with cold roads, you can't lean into the throttle since the tires just spin.  And if you are like me, the heater isn't plumbed in so you don't get any comfort.  There is one real downside and that is for flat tappet cams, you might not have enough engine speed to properly lubricate the cam.  So make sure you vary the RPM enough to keep the cam lubed.

427John

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2021, 08:44:17 PM »
The combustion byproducts include CO and CO2 which can combine with water to form carbonic acid,we actually have to maintain a morpholine or amine residual in condensate to neutralize the effects of it in steam plants.As far as the water sitting at the bottom of an oil pan evaporating that just doesn't happen when there is a layer of oil sitting on top of it.And as soon as you start the engine  the water will become mechanically emulsified with the oil,until you shut it off and let sit long enough to separate again,just like shaking a bottle of oil and vinegar.But any water emulsified with the oil stays where ever happens to have been when the engine was shut off  and when it separates again any carbonic acid in the water is able to attack any machined surfaces it may be in contact with,keep in mind this happening on a minute scale and is not some sort of catastrophic corrosion so the bottom line is do what makes you most comfortable and has worked best for you in the past.I don't think I've heard any horror stories where someone has let their car sit for 3-5 months in a garage and went out and it was locked up or smoked chronically after starting.   
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 08:46:58 PM by 427John »

plovett

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2021, 09:13:29 PM »
you can see the moisture in your oil just by looking under your breather cap.  When I only take short trips for a while in the winter, it is foamy with moisture.  If I take one longer drive, the moisture is evaporated off.  No one mentioned an exact temperature it needs to do that.  Certainly it is a combination of temperature and time that does it.  It can only be good to get it out of the oil.

pl

Heo

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2021, 10:33:34 PM »
And a modern engine with a working PCV gets rid of the moisture quicker
I can tell a story. I know a woman that rebuilt a 67 Camaro under several years
she started up the fully rebuilt 327 but aborted after a few minutes due to a
leaking fuelpump  car became sitting for a few years in a heated garage.
she fixed that, run in the cam. And she called me and asked if i could come
and check the preload on the valves beacuse something was not right.
Mecanical lifter on a hyudralic cam, I noticed the oil was loocking strange
Brownish, muddy. when she lifted the intake to change lifters the lifter valley
was covered in rust, coarse rust like sand that had spread in the whole engine
took out the oilpump and bearings scratched a few cylinders :(

Another friend bought a suposed 283 with a rodknock that have been outside
for years, had a couple of  liters of water in the sump Looked like new in the
crankcase. He checked a couple of bearings, they where fine so he put it back together
and started it. Knock was from two valves that had a couple of milimeters play
due to sloppy adjusting nuts. Was a Rebuilt 327 with forged pistons and Mec cam
runs fine to this day so it is a lottery




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cammerfe

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2021, 10:34:08 PM »
427 John's info above is certainly correct. And there's more to it than just that. The air that is drawn in and used in the combustion process is mostly nitrogen (almost 80 percent) and during the complicated activity of combustion, some of the H2O will combine with some of the nitrogen and become nitric acid---and a bit more will become other sorts of acids as well. So you will have a 'soup' of fairly nasty stuff in your oil until the oil gets to enough of a temperature to drive off the glop as vapor of one sort or another.

You don't have to get clear to 212 Degrees Fahrenheit to get rid of the contaminants. Just as a pan of gently warmed water on a stove will evaporate much faster than that pan of water at room temperature, so the heat you put into the oil will have the various compounds in the water as well as the water itself acting much more vigorously and escaping into the atmosphere. And that's good.

KS

Rory428

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Re: To Run or Not to Run Dog Days of Winter
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2021, 12:06:51 AM »
I prefer to spray Fogging Oil down the carb and let my old stuff hibernate for the winter, until springtime, when I can change the oil, prime the oiling system, and take  the car out for  nice long drive on salt free roads. I may rotate the crank now and then to relax the open valves, or with a larger cam, back the rockers off for the winter. If it`s sitting outside, for quite a while, I will also either spray the fogging oil into the spark plug holes, or engine oil if it is sitting for more than a few months. I don`t really consider an oil testing of a low mile, late model EFI 4 banger is the same as a 50+ year old carburated hot rod type engine.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH