Cleveland or 428?

[e philpott]

FE with TFS over the 351C 4V iron any day

[Tommy-T]

I am not believing that maintenance on a 351C in a '68 Cougar is any easier than a FE. The C is a pretty wide motor and I gotta think drivers side valve cover removal/master cylinder clearance or header install can't be much different between the two.

I have not had a shock tower car with an FE since 1990 or so. Don't plan on ever owning one again. But I vote for the 428 in your Cougar.

No near stock small block can make the power of the 351C. Played with a couple'70 Mach 1's and a pink, bench seat, Cougar with C's. Surprised quite a few at the local street races. I remember a local guy that had a built up Cleveland with a Strip Dominator intake. It ran about the same as my 390 '67 Mustang with Low Riser heads and F427 intake back in the late '70's. We were never pals.

Conversely, the '69 351W 4V was one of the biggest turds ever made. I had a '69 Torino GT 351W 4V. A pal had a '69 Mach also. A 350 Chevell could handily give a whupp'n to either. I never saw coming the day that the 351W would overshadow the 351C in horsepower or popularity.

[410bruce]

Awesome. Thanks everyone. Looks like a unanimous decision. 

I talked to Mark (my machinest) today and said let's get back on the 428 and that I'm going to take a pass on the Cleveland stuff for right now.
I'm taking Friday off and going to go help Mark finish up my block. We're going to do the four corner piston to deck measurements and square and zero deck it.
He's a mom and pop machine shop with only 1 other employee and he has been off for a month or so after having neck surgery. Hopefully he'll be back in February.

I really dig hearing of your stories from back in the day, guys. 

When I first started drag racing my old 460 powered '79 F-100, I ran against a guy with an early '70s Chevy step side with a 454 during a practice run. Just the luck of the draw that we lined up next to each other. Being practice runs, we leave together.
His truck was very nice in a bright yellow and my truck was Rangoon Red with a 428CJ functional hood scoop.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure most people would think the Chevy would destroy me--well that didn't happen. I beat him. That was one of my proudest moments. The ol' 460 shut down the rat. 

[Falcon67]

As a Cleveland guy, in your setup I'd go with the 428.  Both are going to fill the compartment and make changing plugs interesting.  But other than that, the 428 will be better overall for more street/strip type use.  My 355CID 351C makes decent power, but it also likes 4000+ stall converters and 4.11 or better gearing.  They like to eat.  428 has way more grunt where you can use it.  I also don't care for the parts combo to get 408 CID in a 9.2 deck, it just seems awkward. I like the 393 better.
 I'm building a new 427W, but its a Dart base with a 4.125 bore and not a stretched 351W. 

[Rory428]

Obviously, on a FE Forum, the FE would likely be the majority choice, a Cleveland site may well show different thoughts. Regarding engine compartment fit, and spark plug access, my first 2 Mustangs were M code 70s with 351C 4 barrels, and I have also owned 3 428 CJ 69-70 Mustangs, 2 428CJ 69 Cobras, and a 66 Fairlane 390 GTA. What I feel, is that although the 351 C is (slightly) narrower, the spark plugs are buried inside the heads a fair bit, inboard of the exhaust port bosses. So changing the plugs on a 351C is more by feel, than visual, especially with the thick factory exhaust manifolds, even more so if the factory lifting brackets are still in place. Unless running tall valve covers, like the "Cobra LeMans" style, I never found the plugs on the FE all that bad, although I must admit that none of my cars still had the Thermactor air pump and plumbing, and only 1, one of the Cobras had A/C. And if the FE does have the tall valve covers, if you remove the covers, there is plenty of space to get to the plugs. I would rather do the plugs on the FE than the 351C.

[machoneman]

Today, a few aftermarket 351C head/intake combos make a 9.5" W-blocked engine a real killer. Still, these are usually deployed in higher-end builds seeking a lot of hp as opposed to a hot streeter. Worth a look but bring $$$.

[410bruce]

Thanks for the continued replies, gentlemen.

Rory, my problem is I love those Cobra LeMans valve covers and will be purchasing a set of those, or something similar for this engine.  
You're correct about removing them to get to the plugs easier. I had a set on my previous 428 powered '68 GT390 Cougar and removed them for easier access.
Fortunately on my current '67, there are no niceties such as power brakes or AC. 

Kind of waiting to see if we're going to have a country left after today. lol.
After it's all said and done at the capitol, I'll be ordering the TFS heads from Brent.
Hoping I'll maybe be able to bring my block home Friday evening.

[67xr7cat]

Between all the engines you considered I'm thinking should take a 302 block stroked to 347ci and some Cleveland heads and build a Boss 302. 

Anyway my vote do the 428. You are half way there, it will be a fun car and an FE looks great under the hood. It also will make the car worth more regardless that it is not and original FE car. 

[plovett]

Between all the engines you considered I'm thinking should take a 302 block stroked to 347ci and some Cleveland heads and build a Boss 302. 

Anyway my vote do the 428. You are half way there, it will be a fun car and an FE looks great under the hood. It also will make the car worth more regardless that it is not and original FE car. 

Well, the Cougar already has a 289 in it.  Could do a 347 based on that along with some AFR 185 heads and an Eddy Air Gap intake.  That would run good and have lots of room.  I'd rather have a 408 tall deck Windsor with AFR 205 heads, but a 347 can run hard with some gear. 

A 428 FE would still be my first choice, especially if you get good heads for it.  Lots of good options in any case.....

pl

[67xr7cat]

The 289/302 option was already covered in his other thread, he is not a Windsor fan, and got off on building a Cleveland.  Hence why put up the idea of a Boss 302.  Really not to bad to build, just have to find the right intake manifold.  That is one I'd consider building if was going small block C.

Agree 428 FE way to go.

[fryedaddy]

428 with alu heads,intake,water pump and the battery in the trunk of the cougar and you are barely heavier than a stock small block and battery in the engine compartment.

[plovett]

The 289/302 option was already covered in his other thread, he is not a Windsor fan, and got off on building a Cleveland.  Hence why put up the idea of a Boss 302.  Really not to bad to build, just have to find the right intake manifold.  That is one I'd consider building if was going small block C.

Agree 428 FE way to go.

Your reply makes sense.   I was just rambling about the AFR headed Windsor stuff based on my own thoughts.

pl

[427John]

How bout the 428 with iron heads and CJ intake in the cougar for now,pass on the 351 and use that money to buy a nice low mile  460 EFI shortblock and put earlier heads and carb intake on it for the truck? If you're terribly unhappy with the iron heads on the 428 you can always upgrade to aluminum later.The 460 will make a great engine for the truck and give you something to expand up to 550+ cubic inches later if you want.

[410bruce]

Stop it, 427John! You're not making it any easier to stick with my final decision! lol.
I thought about using the iron stuff I already have but the allure of the aluminum is just too great. Even if I didn't gain any power, the weight reduction is worth it.
I've given thought of purchasing the Edelbrocks as a bit of a cost cutting measure but risk a verbal pistol whipping from the gurus for not going with the TFS's.    Just kidding on the pistol whipping part--mostly. 

As far as the 460 part, I have enough parts laying around to build a stout 460. Early D0VE-C casting heads ported with big valves installed by famed 385 builder Scott Johnston, one of his custom cams, a Ford copy of a Performer RPM, roller rockers, couple cranks, a few blocks and truck rods.
460s are great but their terrible on gas. Plus, I like to be different.

I am going to purchase the Cleveland stuff. The guy knows I'm tied up financially in the 428 at the moment and said no problem, it would be there when I was ready for it.

You guys offering up different engine combos--believe me, I've thought about them as well. 
Again, thanks for all the input. I really, really appreciate it 

[hhiibel]

clevor?