Author Topic: Cleveland or 428?  (Read 3922 times)

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410bruce

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Cleveland or 428?
« on: January 18, 2021, 08:59:16 AM »
Alright guys, I've gotten myself into a mental predicament once again.

Should I go with a 408 Cleveland with factory 4V heads or a TFS headed 428 for my '67 Cougar?
I do this all the time with projects--change my mind on what I want to do.

The 428 is partly done. I have everything to complete the short block. Will need to purchase heads and intake (again, as I sold the TFS and Performer RPM I previously had purchased from Brent,) the compatible rocker stands and rocker assemblies and pushrods. Have a manual transmission flywheel, bell housing and Hooker 6114 headers already. Still need the correct motor mounts.

The Cleveland stuff I will have to purchase from a local guy--a grand for a complete short block and complete 4V closed chamber heads, or $750 for a bare block and the heads.
Will purchase the 408 kit from Brent. Will possibly need to machine the heads for screw-in studs and guide plates--unless a hydraulic flat tappet cam could be utilized with the stock bolt-down rockers--and of course will need new stainless valves and the correct springs and retainers for whatever cam is selected.
Can use all the installation components already in the car--motor mounts, bell housing etc. Will need to purchase a flywheel and headers.

I'm also still wanting to do an engine swap in my '89 F-150 2wd short bed and what the 428 was originally purchased for.
I could install the 428 using factory iron heads and CJ intake I already have and have a torquie, fun driver. Would have to change the transmission, motor mounts etc. but I do have headers that would probably work.

Or...install the Cleveland at stock cubic inch and still have a fun driver. Won't have to change the transmission. Had a 351 4V CJ motor in my old '79 F-100 2wd short bed years ago and it was fun.

Which engine would you put in which rig? The FE would be period correct for the Cougar but of course, neither would be for the truck. I like the idea of the Cleveland in the Cougar because of the ease of maintenance but like the FE because it's correct for the era.

I can either buy the heads for the 428 or the stroker kit for the Cleveland, I can't do both.

Thanks guys.

turbohunter

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2021, 09:49:57 AM »
I think we’ve all been in this place Bruce.
Seems to me like you said it yourself in your post.
Small block in the Cougar, FE in the truck.
Those 4v’s are pretty darn cool.
Good luck in your brain tussle.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


410bruce

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2021, 10:05:15 AM »
Thank you, Marc. Glad to know I'm not alone in my mental gymnastics.  :o   :D

« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 11:10:41 AM by 410bruce »

jayb

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2021, 10:50:31 AM »
My brother has a 428 in his 68 Cougar.  Once installed, it really hasn't posed any maintenance problems.  A stock FE is also not that much heavier than a stock Cleveland.  I vote FE in the Cougar.  There is no replacement for displacement  ;D
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

410bruce

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2021, 10:54:56 AM »
Thank you, Jay.  :)

1 vote for the 428.  8)

turbohunter

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2021, 11:05:06 AM »
LOL Bruce
Just to add to your dilemma I really wasn’t advocating one way or the other. I just brought up what you seemed to be saying in your post.
I know, thanks a lot Marc ::)

BTW I put a 428 in my mustang. The extra bit of weight is no prob with the right springs.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 11:07:30 AM by turbohunter »
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


410bruce

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2021, 11:09:57 AM »
D'oh! Lol. Okay, Marc, duly noted. I'll change the post to reflect that. 8)

blykins

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2021, 11:16:44 AM »
I don't think a factory headed 408C will make the hp that a TFS headed 428 will (without some camshaft) and it for sure won't make the torque. 
Brent Lykins
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410bruce

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2021, 11:29:17 AM »
Thank you, Brent.

I'll take that as a roundabout vote for the 428.  :D

plovett

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2021, 11:30:52 AM »
No doubt Jay is being tongue in cheek with his rhyme.  He knows flow is more important than displacement.   Hence his awesome new heads.  Or you could just put a stock 534 Ford in it?  :)

Either FE or Clevo would be great in your Cougar.  An FE really is tight and spark plug changes and header bolt access are a pain with an FE and stock shock towers.  They are doable, though. 

4V Clevo's can make awesome power thanks to their head flow and the 408 inches would bring the rpm down and make it more streetable.   On the other hand, if you are getting TFS heads for your 428 then the decision does seem more difficult. 

Cutting back the shock towers makes a big difference in a Mustang/Cougar with an FE.  I did it in mine and it was well worth it.  Attaching some pics.  Since you have the engine out........maybe?

Final analyis is this:  If you already have the 428 short block (and you are going to get the good flowing TFS heads)  I say go with that for the Cougar.  Cut the shock towers while the engine bay is open.   And then get a more "trucky" engine for your '89 F150.  Something like a mild 460.  Then tell me where to get the Clevo shortblock and closed chamber 4V heads.   ;D

JMO,

paulie




410bruce

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2021, 11:56:38 AM »
Thank you, Paulie.

The 289 is still in the car at this time. I am currently getting it running enough just to move the car around under its own power. The 289 had dropped a valve and the car has been sitting since 1985. It's a complete POS right now and needs tons of rust repair so cutting the shock towers is certainly an option. Unfortunately, I'm no fabricator and would need assistance. However, a good friend who is a welder in a muffler shop and likes to build things said he would install the floor pans and engine bay apron pieces for me. maybe he'd take on the shock towers as well.

I had a 460 in my old '79 F-100 as well--after the 351CJ. It was a whole lotta fun. Ran high 12s with it in the quarter in full street trim. It was pretty impressive for a truck at the time.
I have plenty of 460 stuff laying around, enough to build a fun street engine. Also have a few C6s for the 460 laying around as well.

With how I'm leaning now and all of the input here, I may just shelve the Cleveland idea for now. But, I am thinking I should probably pick up the short block and heads anyway, you know, just in case a future project comes along.  :o ;D

Gaugster

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2021, 12:40:39 PM »
I'll vote for the 428 going in the Cougar. I'm totally biased since I'm a Cougar/FE guy. I can relate to challenges of spark plug access with factory shock towers. I only have manifolds now but hear that headers + power steering (my ride) is another hurtle.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 12:42:17 PM by Gaugster »
John - '68 Cougar XR7 390 FE (X-Code) 6R80 AUTO

410bruce

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2021, 01:18:53 PM »
Thank you, Gaugster.  8)

plovett

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2021, 01:24:16 PM »
And as Jay mentioned an FE is not terribly heavy.   You're already talking aluminum heads and intake, too.  That might be 90 lbs less?  Might as well get an aluminum water pump, and maybe even an aluminum radiator, too?

I bet your friend can do the shock towers.  I don't weld yet, but I helped my buddy do mine.  It wasn't that bad. 

paulie




plovett

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2021, 01:29:18 PM »

I had a 460 in my old '79 F-100 as well--after the 351CJ. It was a whole lotta fun. Ran high 12s with it in the quarter in full street trim. It was pretty impressive for a truck at the time.
I have plenty of 460 stuff laying around, enough to build a fun street engine. Also have a few C6s for the 460 laying around as well.


A real "trucky" truck that runs 12's is still impressive today, in my opinion.

pl

e philpott

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2021, 01:32:29 PM »
FE with TFS over the 351C 4V iron any day

Tommy-T

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2021, 02:57:59 PM »
I am not believing that maintenance on a 351C in a '68 Cougar is any easier than a FE. The C is a pretty wide motor and I gotta think drivers side valve cover removal/master cylinder clearance or header install can't be much different between the two.

I have not had a shock tower car with an FE since 1990 or so. Don't plan on ever owning one again. But I vote for the 428 in your Cougar.

No near stock small block can make the power of the 351C. Played with a couple'70 Mach 1's and a pink, bench seat, Cougar with C's. Surprised quite a few at the local street races. I remember a local guy that had a built up Cleveland with a Strip Dominator intake. It ran about the same as my 390 '67 Mustang with Low Riser heads and F427 intake back in the late '70's. We were never pals.

Conversely, the '69 351W 4V was one of the biggest turds ever made. I had a '69 Torino GT 351W 4V. A pal had a '69 Mach also. A 350 Chevell could handily give a whupp'n to either. I never saw coming the day that the 351W would overshadow the 351C in horsepower or popularity.

410bruce

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2021, 07:39:24 PM »
Awesome. Thanks everyone. Looks like a unanimous decision.  :)

I talked to Mark (my machinest) today and said let's get back on the 428 and that I'm going to take a pass on the Cleveland stuff for right now.
I'm taking Friday off and going to go help Mark finish up my block. We're going to do the four corner piston to deck measurements and square and zero deck it.
He's a mom and pop machine shop with only 1 other employee and he has been off for a month or so after having neck surgery. Hopefully he'll be back in February.

I really dig hearing of your stories from back in the day, guys.  8)

When I first started drag racing my old 460 powered '79 F-100, I ran against a guy with an early '70s Chevy step side with a 454 during a practice run. Just the luck of the draw that we lined up next to each other. Being practice runs, we leave together.
His truck was very nice in a bright yellow and my truck was Rangoon Red with a 428CJ functional hood scoop.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure most people would think the Chevy would destroy me--well that didn't happen. I beat him. That was one of my proudest moments. The ol' 460 shut down the rat.  8)

Falcon67

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2021, 10:41:38 AM »
As a Cleveland guy, in your setup I'd go with the 428.  Both are going to fill the compartment and make changing plugs interesting.  But other than that, the 428 will be better overall for more street/strip type use.  My 355CID 351C makes decent power, but it also likes 4000+ stall converters and 4.11 or better gearing.  They like to eat.  428 has way more grunt where you can use it.  I also don't care for the parts combo to get 408 CID in a 9.2 deck, it just seems awkward. I like the 393 better.
 I'm building a new 427W, but its a Dart base with a 4.125 bore and not a stretched 351W. 

Rory428

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2021, 10:49:16 PM »
Obviously, on a FE Forum, the FE would likely be the majority choice, a Cleveland site may well show different thoughts. Regarding engine compartment fit, and spark plug access, my first 2 Mustangs were M code 70s with 351C 4 barrels, and I have also owned 3 428 CJ 69-70 Mustangs, 2 428CJ 69 Cobras, and a 66 Fairlane 390 GTA. What I feel, is that although the 351 C is (slightly) narrower, the spark plugs are buried inside the heads a fair bit, inboard of the exhaust port bosses. So changing the plugs on a 351C is more by feel, than visual, especially with the thick factory exhaust manifolds, even more so if the factory lifting brackets are still in place. Unless running tall valve covers, like the "Cobra LeMans" style, I never found the plugs on the FE all that bad, although I must admit that none of my cars still had the Thermactor air pump and plumbing, and only 1, one of the Cobras had A/C. And if the FE does have the tall valve covers, if you remove the covers, there is plenty of space to get to the plugs. I would rather do the plugs on the FE than the 351C.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

machoneman

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2021, 07:49:20 AM »
Today, a few aftermarket 351C head/intake combos make a 9.5" W-blocked engine a real killer. Still, these are usually deployed in higher-end builds seeking a lot of hp as opposed to a hot streeter. Worth a look but bring $$$.
Bob Maag

410bruce

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2021, 08:31:43 AM »
Thanks for the continued replies, gentlemen.

Rory, my problem is I love those Cobra LeMans valve covers and will be purchasing a set of those, or something similar for this engine. :) 
You're correct about removing them to get to the plugs easier. I had a set on my previous 428 powered '68 GT390 Cougar and removed them for easier access.
Fortunately on my current '67, there are no niceties such as power brakes or AC.  :)

Kind of waiting to see if we're going to have a country left after today. lol.
After it's all said and done at the capitol, I'll be ordering the TFS heads from Brent.
Hoping I'll maybe be able to bring my block home Friday evening.

67xr7cat

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2021, 07:17:54 PM »
Between all the engines you considered I'm thinking should take a 302 block stroked to 347ci and some Cleveland heads and build a Boss 302. 

Anyway my vote do the 428. You are half way there, it will be a fun car and an FE looks great under the hood. It also will make the car worth more regardless that it is not and original FE car. 

plovett

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2021, 08:18:51 PM »
Between all the engines you considered I'm thinking should take a 302 block stroked to 347ci and some Cleveland heads and build a Boss 302. 

Anyway my vote do the 428. You are half way there, it will be a fun car and an FE looks great under the hood. It also will make the car worth more regardless that it is not and original FE car. 

Well, the Cougar already has a 289 in it.  Could do a 347 based on that along with some AFR 185 heads and an Eddy Air Gap intake.  That would run good and have lots of room.  I'd rather have a 408 tall deck Windsor with AFR 205 heads, but a 347 can run hard with some gear. 

A 428 FE would still be my first choice, especially if you get good heads for it.  Lots of good options in any case.....

pl


67xr7cat

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2021, 10:03:22 PM »
The 289/302 option was already covered in his other thread, he is not a Windsor fan, and got off on building a Cleveland.  Hence why put up the idea of a Boss 302.  Really not to bad to build, just have to find the right intake manifold.  That is one I'd consider building if was going small block C.

Agree 428 FE way to go.

fryedaddy

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2021, 11:34:01 PM »
428 with alu heads,intake,water pump and the battery in the trunk of the cougar and you are barely heavier than a stock small block and battery in the engine compartment.
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

plovett

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2021, 09:07:33 AM »
The 289/302 option was already covered in his other thread, he is not a Windsor fan, and got off on building a Cleveland.  Hence why put up the idea of a Boss 302.  Really not to bad to build, just have to find the right intake manifold.  That is one I'd consider building if was going small block C.

Agree 428 FE way to go.

Your reply makes sense.   I was just rambling about the AFR headed Windsor stuff based on my own thoughts.

pl

427John

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2021, 12:12:59 AM »
How bout the 428 with iron heads and CJ intake in the cougar for now,pass on the 351 and use that money to buy a nice low mile  460 EFI shortblock and put earlier heads and carb intake on it for the truck? If you're terribly unhappy with the iron heads on the 428 you can always upgrade to aluminum later.The 460 will make a great engine for the truck and give you something to expand up to 550+ cubic inches later if you want.

410bruce

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2021, 09:50:30 AM »
Stop it, 427John! You're not making it any easier to stick with my final decision! lol.
I thought about using the iron stuff I already have but the allure of the aluminum is just too great. Even if I didn't gain any power, the weight reduction is worth it.
I've given thought of purchasing the Edelbrocks as a bit of a cost cutting measure but risk a verbal pistol whipping from the gurus for not going with the TFS's.  :D  Just kidding on the pistol whipping part--mostly.  ;)

As far as the 460 part, I have enough parts laying around to build a stout 460. Early D0VE-C casting heads ported with big valves installed by famed 385 builder Scott Johnston, one of his custom cams, a Ford copy of a Performer RPM, roller rockers, couple cranks, a few blocks and truck rods.
460s are great but their terrible on gas. Plus, I like to be different.

I am going to purchase the Cleveland stuff. The guy knows I'm tied up financially in the 428 at the moment and said no problem, it would be there when I was ready for it.

You guys offering up different engine combos--believe me, I've thought about them as well.  :D
Again, thanks for all the input. I really, really appreciate it  8)

hhiibel

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Re: Cleveland or 428?
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2021, 05:24:51 PM »
clevor?