Author Topic: FE Head gaskets  (Read 11081 times)

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frnkeore

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2020, 12:32:08 PM »
Well Ross, I have a machinist back ground, some skill at math and I'm inquisitive. I've never been someone to do something, just because someone else does it or it's the popular thing to do. If I'm interested in something, I always want to know "why". I've always had a racers mentality, from as far back as 12 years old and look for that last bit of advantage or strive to get as close as possible to the rules, w/o braking them.

Compression is one of the best and fastest ways of making HP. From what I've seen, most do not consider the area, from the top ring to the top of the piston, in their calculation of CR, leaving 1 to 1.5cc out of their total chamber. As a racer, there is no way I would leave .07 of CR, off the table. If X CR = some amount of HP, then X/CR = another amount.

I did not do this for HP, I did this for quench and to keep my CR below 10/1, knowing what my actual CR is so, I can use most pump gas, with my valve and ignition timing.  I did this thread, because I thought it would be interesting and valuable for others and I was hoping that I could get some blanks filled in.

Frank

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blykins

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2020, 12:38:15 PM »
Well Ross, I have a machinist back ground, some skill at math and I'm inquisitive. I've never been someone to do something, just because someone else does it or it's the popular thing to do. If I'm interested in something, I always want to know "why". I've always had a racers mentality, from as far back as 12 years old and look for that last bit of advantage or strive to get as close as possible to the rules, w/o braking them.

Compression is one of the best and fastest ways of making HP. From what I've seen, most do not consider the area, from the top ring to the top of the piston, in their calculation of CR, leaving 1 to 1.5cc out of their total chamber. As a racer, there is no way I would leave .07 of CR, off the table. If X CR = some amount of HP, then X/CR = another amount.

I did not do this for HP, I did this for quench and to keep my CR below 10/1, knowing what my actual CR is so, I can use most pump gas, with my valve and ignition timing.  I did this thread, because I thought it would be interesting and valuable for others and I was hoping that I could get some blanks filled in.

Frank, your chambers will vary by a lot more than .07 points and if your block isn’t perfectly machined, it’s gonna vary by a much greater degree, and on differing cylinders.  Even your crevice volume will differ depending on the lengths of your connecting rods.

I think you’re splitting extremely small hairs on head gaskets when the other facets are like splitting tree trunks.  What are you going to do when those head gaskets compress to .050" on one and .052" on the other?   You going to re-bush and resize your rods when the lengths vary by .002-.003"?   You're not working with high quality, precision, aftermarket pistons and rods.   Your crankshaft stroke can even vary. 

You could go from 10:1 to 11:1 and not see 15 hp difference so I wouldn't be worried about .07 of a point.  I don't even think you can read a meniscus on a burette to that degree of precision.   You certainly can't measure that head gasket bore that accurately unless you mock it up and pour it, or sit down and do some integral calculus.   Your actual compression ratio is going to be a big bunch of variables until that block is measured, all the chambers are measured, pistons are poured, and everything else is measured.   Entering theoretical numbers into a calculator is not precision engine building.



« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 01:10:43 PM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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My427stang

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2020, 01:38:25 PM »
Well Ross, I have a machinist back ground, some skill at math and I'm inquisitive. I've never been someone to do something, just because someone else does it or it's the popular thing to do. If I'm interested in something, I always want to know "why". I've always had a racers mentality, from as far back as 12 years old and look for that last bit of advantage or strive to get as close as possible to the rules, w/o braking them.

Compression is one of the best and fastest ways of making HP. From what I've seen, most do not consider the area, from the top ring to the top of the piston, in their calculation of CR, leaving 1 to 1.5cc out of their total chamber. As a racer, there is no way I would leave .07 of CR, off the table. If X CR = some amount of HP, then X/CR = another amount.

I did not do this for HP, I did this for quench and to keep my CR below 10/1, knowing what my actual CR is so, I can use most pump gas, with my valve and ignition timing.  I did this thread, because I thought it would be interesting and valuable for others and I was hoping that I could get some blanks filled in.

Frank, nice thing about the internet and the garage, everyone can do their own thing.   I say have fun, I don't need to know why, but certainly can see what you are doing with the pistons proud and how you got there. 

Guys who build nice stuff think about crevice volume, and if you do too, better.  In some cases I have even played around with squish/dish surface area ratio and D-cup vs dish calculation, and realized in that case, it didn't mean much at small numbers.  I am with Brent though that there is more substantial improvements to be made with machine work, but your circus, your monkeys to butcher an old Polish saying.  (The Polish saying is "not my circus, not my monkeys", meaning none of my business...)

As an input, I do not know if your calculator adjusts the top ring land height to the negative deck clearance, but if you are getting that fussy, may want to run the volume numbers yourself and see

In the end though, Brent gave you some good info.  Our comments may not apply to the actual head gasket discussion, but it's good info, and it's free.  Guys like him, me and other builders on this forum making good power on small cams, pump gas, high vacuum really look close at how the block is machined to get there and are passing our experience. I just wanted to point out you may not be as consistent as you are calculating without a squared block and mains, along with the other things Brent mentioned

I meant it though, and not as a jab, Rock Auto is cheap, buy every option, measure, smell, taste, you name it, and tell us ...  love to hear what you find.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 01:41:07 PM by My427stang »
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frnkeore

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2020, 01:47:58 PM »
Brent, this always happens when you get evolved with any post or thread that, I do.

To begin with, yes, this is theory for now but, I do have the ability to measure almost anything. The heads have machined chambers, that are suppose to be 72cc. I haven't measured them yet but, I expect them to cc more closely than cast chambers.

I can split hairs on cc's. I don't use a burette. cc is based on the weight of water and I weight the distilled water. I will measure the protrusion of the pistons and if need be, machine them, to what ever distance I want. I could also machine the bushings, installed in the rods, to the same length, before honing but, that requires 2 trips to the machine shop.

Does it bother you that I split hairs? I don't have as many as I use to :(
Frank

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blykins

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2020, 01:54:36 PM »
Brent, this always happens when you get evolved with any post or thread that, I do.

To begin with, yes, this is theory for now but, I do have the ability to measure almost anything. The heads have machined chambers, that are suppose to be 72cc. I haven't measured them yet but, I expect them to cc more closely than cast chambers.

I can split hairs on cc's. I don't use a burette. cc is based on the weight of water and I weight the distilled water. I will measure the protrusion of the pistons and if need be, machine them, to what ever distance I want. I could also machine the bushings, installed in the rods, to the same length, before honing but, that requires 2 trips to the machine shop.

Does it bother you that I split hairs? I don't have as many as I use to :(

Me either.  I'm bald as a cue ball.

Frank, nothing you do bothers me, but you're not an engine builder and I'm trying to help you out.   You're working with a bunch of used, factory parts, express no desire to machine the block correctly, and are worried about the bore size of a head gasket that will basically be immeasurable. 

You do you, fam. 
Brent Lykins
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frnkeore

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2020, 02:26:26 PM »
If you trying to help me out, Brent, do it with head gasket info. That's what this thread is about.

Get a set of those Edelbrocks, put them on your 359 and and torque them, tell us what it is. That would be helping and maybe it will also help you in a build, down the road.

Send me a set of both, Ford steel shim gaskets I asked about (I'll pay the postage), that would also help me.

If I find that I have to deck the block, I'll do so but, not until I measure it.

As I said, this about head gaskets, not engine building. You'll have your chance when I open the Project thread. Until then, please help with this thread about head gaskets. That would be helping and appreciated.

If you only want to use 2 head gaskets, that's fine with me but, if someone else, wants to use something they think fits their build, a little better, why not let them, if the quench is safe?
Frank

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blykins

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2020, 02:49:51 PM »
If you trying to help me out, Brent, do it with head gasket info. That's what this thread is about.

Get a set of those Edelbrocks, put them on your 359 and and torque them, tell us what it is. That would be helping and maybe it will also help you in a build, down the road.

Send me a set of both, Ford steel shim gaskets I asked about (I'll pay the postage), that would also help me.

If I find that I have to deck the block, I'll do so but, not until I measure it.

As I said, this about head gaskets, not engine building. You'll have your chance when I open the Project thread. Until then, please help with this thread about head gaskets. That would be helping and appreciated.

If you only want to use 2 head gaskets, that's fine with me but, if someone else, wants to use something they think fits their build, a little better, why not let them, if the quench is safe?

Sorry Frank, there hasn't been a set of steel shim gaskets here since I've been in business.  Don't use them, don't want to, as that means the pistons are down in the hole and I don't run them that way. 

I'm 99.9999992% sure that those Edelbrocks measured at like .050-.051", but you're more than welcome to get a set and try them out.  The 352 got 1020's with the pistons .005-.006 out of the hole and the heads are at Joe's right now.

I understand your logic in wanting a cheap .060" gasket.  With the pistons .020" out, you don't have that many options.  But you may have been premature in pulling the trigger on them since you haven't measured anything yet.  Regardless, if they were cheap enough, it's worth keeping a set as I don't expect them to be offered much longer.  As for the other .050" gasket that was mentioned, there's not enough difference between it and an 8554 to go chasing them. 

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
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plovett

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2020, 07:46:41 AM »
Thanks for starting the thread, Frank. It is not something I had thought to do.  Don't let grumpy old men bother you.  I don't have much to add except I have always been a Felpro 1020 man myself.   Good thickness for zero deck, big enough bore for most
any FE, and they have never failed me. 

pl
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 07:50:46 AM by plovett »

Joe-JDC

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2020, 11:11:33 AM »
I was not a "grumpy old man" until I kept reading this banter over and over.  Now I just glance to see who "got the last word in".  Joe-JDC
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turbohunter

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2020, 12:22:59 PM »
Said before I’ll say it again.
It’s very difficult to express the correct feeling/attitude/whatever with the written word.
One person reads a statement as an explanation, another reads it as a tongue lashing.
In reading MOST of the battles here and on the old site it was more times than not a misunderstanding of the writer’s intention that sparked the melee.
We all love the same thing. Some of us make a living at it and have quite a bit of first hand knowledge as they do it every day.
We should all default to giving the writer a break because WE ALL LOVE THE SAME THING.
Sorry I yelled there :)
Marc
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wowens

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2020, 07:50:25 PM »
I was not a "grumpy old man" until I kept reading this banter over and over.  Now I just glance to see who "got the last word in".  Joe-JDC

Me too, well said Joe
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Tommy-T

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2020, 03:05:57 AM »
Thought I'd jump on this before it fell off the front page. I have a couple of other head gaskets to throw in.

The first one is the SCE Titan solid copper with silicone imprinting and a wire-in-fire-ring (like a 1020 Felpro). They are still available new in various thicknesses. I ran the ones pictured when I first put together my 8-71 blown 454 inch motor. They worked fine as far as sealing in compression, but they did weep a very slight amount of coolant and oil. It is totally possible that it was caused by my block prep.

The second ones I could use some help from the old farts here for some info. They are what I ass-u-me to be some old Mr. Gasket copper-asbestos sandwich jobs. I bought them from Ron Miller in the '80's because I thought they looked cool. I have seen several sets of these for FE motors over the years, and have seen them for Pontiacs and Chevys as well. Has anybody ever run them? They obviously fell out of favor some time in the '70's and have been out of production for a very long time.

Heo

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Re: FE Head gaskets
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2020, 01:17:06 PM »
Copper asbestos like the old flathead gaskets. The oldtimers say you
Can reuse them if you boil them that make the asbestos layer to swell



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