Author Topic: 360 horse 352  (Read 7772 times)

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WConley

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2020, 04:27:16 PM »
Although it does have fowl in there every now and then.

Having been there, I can attest to that.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

Royce

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2020, 09:30:32 AM »
I have been looking at this 60 Starliner 352/360 horse car for a few months.. It is a top quality restoration that fell on hard times when the owner dies and it sat in damp storage fr 7 yr.. I did my due diligence on the special parts that make it a 360 horse and everything checks out.. So I bought it. The engine compartment had really taken some hurt from being damp so I pulled the motor for a re-detail. Once it was out and on the stand I pulled off all the accessories and the intake manifold for cleaning... The engine was suppose to have been recently rebuild and the inside was very clean.. All good so far.. I t had occurred to me that since this seemed like a legit 360 horse with recent freshening wouldn't it be fun to run it at the chicken coop dyno and see if it really made 360 horse. In furtherance of that goal I figured I should check to see which cam i had.. First thing to get my attention was the pushrods were a mix of different styles.. never a good sign of a careful builder. A double row timing chain and a cam retainer plate appeared so now we know it's not the original cam. I pull the cam and to my disappointment about 4 lobes are trashed.  On the cam itself there are almost no markings so i have no idea what it is..Now we are looking at tear down so I pull the heads. I put one head on the bench and remove a pair of valves...2.09/1.65  Intake is 5.44 stem length exhaust is 5.375  Short valves have lash caps.  These are the correct C0 heads for a 352HP..  Now we know it's really been messed with. I go back and look at the block..  Piston is stamped STD on top but looks bigger than 4 "  I put a caliper on it and it measures 4.130.. WTF!  This is a B9 block cast in Dec. 59. I can only imagine how thin those cylinder walls must be. I measure stroke and sure enough 3.98...So what we have hear is a cheater/sleeper 428 dressed up as a 352. The engine ran and did not leak water. I am not sure what I want to do next...
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block
800hp 476 cu in Edsel MEL.. 2 time EMC winner
1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car  Currently engineless,  Boss 9 transplant coming soon.
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1958 Mercury Monterey  430cu in 400hp 3x2 Super Marauder
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1960 Starliner 352/360hp, real one
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project

Joe-JDC

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2020, 10:32:14 AM »
OUCH!  That stinks.  Sonic check for sure to see if the block can be salvaged.  Maybe after the sonic check, do a half fill of the block, and light hone for some modern piston/ring combination, and build it back to look stock.  Hopefully you can salvage the real parts for re-sale, or display.  Is the car going to be driven, or for car shows?  Start looking for another real 352 short block with correct date.  They are around.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

frnkeore

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2020, 12:03:19 PM »
As I said, when I first got on this forum, it was common to bore early blocks 1/8 and they survived. Sonic testing, wasn't even thought of in the 60's.

Pull a soft plug and drill test it and see what you have if, a 1/4" drill fits tight, you'd have the same as a 4.25 bore, 427 (1/8 walls), w/o core shift. If a 9/32 drill fits, that would be the same as a 4.28 bore, 427 (.110 walls), again, w/o core shift.

But, my guess is that you'll sonic test it? If so, it will be interesting to know the result.

BTW, you didn't say if it also has the 428 dampener.

Frank

thatdarncat

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2020, 01:51:28 PM »
As I said, when I first got on this forum, it was common to bore early blocks 1/8 and they survived. Sonic testing, wasn't even thought of in the 60's.

Pull a soft plug and drill test it and see what you have if, a 1/4" drill fits tight, you'd have the same as a 4.25 bore, 427 (1/8 walls), w/o core shift. If a 9/32 drill fits, that would be the same as a 4.28 bore, 427 (.110 walls), again, w/o core shift.

But, my guess is that you'll sonic test it? If so, it will be interesting to know the result.

BTW, you didn't say if it also has the 428 dampener.

I’m guessing you may have just mis-spoke on the drill bit test, but just so people unfamiliar with the test get accurate info - a 1/4” drill bit (16/64” ) between the cylinders is just a normal 352/360/390/410 FE block. An approximately 12/64”-13/64” drill bit is a possible 428 cylinder core, and a 8/64”-9/64” bit is a 427 cylinder core.

428’s use a neutral balanced dampener, just like other FE’s. The 428 SCJ uses a larger diameter dampener but still neutral balanced. Only the 428 SCJ has the hatchet spacer behind the dampener.
Kevin Rolph

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1966 7 litre Galaxie
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1966 Cyclone GT 390
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mbrunson427

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2020, 01:56:46 PM »
Positive news is hipo blocks didn't get markings until late 60/early 61. Any 59-60 352 block will do. If you want to get fancy you can find one with a date code close to the cars manufacture date.

frnkeore

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2020, 02:32:19 PM »
427 wall thickness = 4.63 - .125 (space) = 4.505 - 4.264 (.030 over) = .241 / 2 = .1205 wall thickness

352 bored 4.13 = 4.63 - .25 (space) = 4.38 - 4.13 = .25 / 2 = .125 wall thickness

While the corner strengthening for most? of the 427's helps overall block strength, it does nothing for the thrust side of the cylinder wall.

I'm no way saying it's ideal but, it was done in my era and some people on this forum, have bored the 427's to 4.280 (.11205 wall).

As I said, we didn't have sonic testing, in the "Olden Days" but, at times, ignorance can be bliss.
Frank

Royce

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2020, 05:04:09 PM »
Anybody got a 59 352 they want to part with?   I am going to invest in a sonic tester..  I have had 390s that would not go 60 over so I am skeptical..
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block
800hp 476 cu in Edsel MEL.. 2 time EMC winner
1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car  Currently engineless,  Boss 9 transplant coming soon.
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1958 Mercury Monterey  430cu in 400hp 3x2 Super Marauder
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1960 Starliner 352/360hp, real one
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project

Royce

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2020, 08:06:01 PM »
Well a 17/64 bit will go between the cylinders 1/4 goes easily...As they say in our local Polish dialect.  She's mighty tin that one is hey
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block
800hp 476 cu in Edsel MEL.. 2 time EMC winner
1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car  Currently engineless,  Boss 9 transplant coming soon.
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1958 Mercury Monterey  430cu in 400hp 3x2 Super Marauder
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1960 Starliner 352/360hp, real one
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project

Royce

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2020, 09:07:56 AM »
Ok....  a member has a B9 block for me.. I should be able to easily find a 3.5 crank.. Is there an off the shelf piston rod combination that works without using stock stuff?
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block
800hp 476 cu in Edsel MEL.. 2 time EMC winner
1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car  Currently engineless,  Boss 9 transplant coming soon.
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1958 Mercury Monterey  430cu in 400hp 3x2 Super Marauder
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1960 Starliner 352/360hp, real one
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project

wayne

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2020, 09:46:36 AM »
I not saying its right but the old days they would run the block and never give it a thought the rods would give up before the block.Their was one i know for sure ran a long time as a 406.

Royce

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2020, 10:00:16 AM »
I really want to build the right 352 for the Starliner.. I will probably keep the 428 around for some lighter duty application
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block
800hp 476 cu in Edsel MEL.. 2 time EMC winner
1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car  Currently engineless,  Boss 9 transplant coming soon.
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1958 Mercury Monterey  430cu in 400hp 3x2 Super Marauder
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1960 Starliner 352/360hp, real one
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2020, 10:06:23 AM »
Werby if you want this info for your records....

I have done two List 2112 carburetors recently.

List number         2112 C0AE-9510-AA
Type            4160
Primary            
Float            Side hung
Booster            .140 straight
Angle Channel         .138
Pump nozzle         .025
Pump type and cam      white #1
Idle air bleed         .072
High speed bleed      .028
Metering block#         2995
Main Jet         64
Power valve         6.5
PVCR            .040
Emulsion         2@ .028
Kill Bleed         na, emulsion feed .026
Idle Feed restriction      .026
Venturi size         1 3/32, 1 3/32
Throttle plate size      1.5 107/116

Secondary
Mechanical or Vacuum?      vs
Spring color         plain, stiff
Diapghram length      2.2
Float            side hung
Booster            .140 Straight
Idle air bleed         .033
High speed bleed      .033
Metering block/plate#      10
Idle Feed Restriction      .025
Jet size         .075


Fairly rich jetting for such a small carb.  If I were to stab a guess at jetting for this size carb it'd be 62/67.  My guess is that this was designed strictly for a 1/4 mile time, but who knows what they wanted in 1959.
I have black book entry as well as Master Data sheet for this carb.

Drew
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 10:14:59 AM by Drew Pojedinec »

allrightmike

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2020, 10:48:18 AM »
Could changes in fuel formulation from 1960 to date have an influence on carb. spefications - calibrations?

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2020, 11:30:33 AM »
The other carbs of the era were NOT the same.