Author Topic: 360 horse 352  (Read 7722 times)

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WerbyFord

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2020, 09:44:31 PM »
WerbyFord can you tell how much hp it would take run 150 in that 60.

The Gonkulator thinks that a typical NHRA-legal 352/360HP at about 387 gross hp with open exhaust and no fan (no need) gets it done for the Vicki Wood 150mph.

Bonneville at 4300 ft is only about 1mph slower due to the altitude. In theory, there is NO difference - you make less power, but the air you're cutting is EXACTLY that much thinner so it's the same.
But, you still have the same (minor) driveline losses so you do lose a little top speed.

I totally guessed at Karol Miller's Isky RR8000 (roller?) cam and Gonkulated 431hp for his Starliner.
The Starliner body ran about 2.5mph faster, Bonneville was almost 1mph slower, and the engine added about 6mph vs Vicki's "NHRA legal" 352/360hp.

Great story about Vicki. Funny, she may have been at Flat Rock in 1963 when I was there- I was a little kid, I remember being scared of the blue &orange flames coming out of the flathead blocks (no exhaust manifolds, just wide open junkyard cars). I cant get the picture in the link to work, I need a new laptop like all the schoolkids get for free.

Who knows exactly what they did in each case so there is some guessing here.
That 60-62 front end was pretty slick. The 62 box roof messed things up or it would likely have been slicker than the 63-64 cars, let alone the 65 bricks. The slick curvy-front-hood went away in the mid-60s and then made an encore with the Talladega body. Then it went away again for the dark era of the 1970s.

The Gonkulator puts a well prepped bone stock 352/360 Starliner at 135mph top speed, with just 2-1/4 pipes, mufflers, everything else stone stock. Still pretty darn good but not 150mph.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 09:49:44 PM by WerbyFord »

RJP

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2020, 11:51:13 PM »
Werby, You are more than welcome to come to my shop and degree the 276* cam that I have in my 66 Galaxie 428. This is the same cam I purchased new, in the cardboard tube from Morris Landy Ford in Alameda, Ca. on or about 1967-68 when replacement parts were still supplied for the usual time honored 10 year period for part availability. As to your comment that the cam would "Idle like a kitten" it does. Idle is very smooth at it's typical idle speed of 650-675 rpm and still smooth while in-gear. Lashed at .028" now it has the music of the typical valve clatter most solid lifter cams have or should. As for the 306* cam idle wasn't quite as docile but did have the typical music of the solid lifters depending on the valve lash. I didn't play with the valve lash quite as often as I did with with the 276* cam. With that cam I would vary the valve lash anywhere from .021" to .030" with a distinct difference in where the power curve occurred. It is a very responsive cam. Regarding your doubt that a cam that mild would have the "well prepped" power/torque curve to only produce a 135 mph top speed...not a 150 mph, I wholeheartedly disagree. My 60 Starliner ran app. 140mph [dream wheel calculated, thats all I had] using this 276* cam in a forged dish-top piston .030" over 390, all else stock, single 4V, thru the mufflers.  With a 2.91 gear, T-10 4 speed, 5000rpm [and still pulling BTW] on a 28.5" tire...I pedaled it at 5K as I was on a public highway and thought this was not very prudent. ::) 

frnkeore

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2020, 02:24:16 AM »
Here is some of my solid lifter cam info, direct from Ford publications. Also 2 pictures, one of the race cams and another of the intake options. These from a Ford Tech Tips, of 1968.
Note, there is a C8AX-B, with the manifolds.

FE Solid Lifter Cams

C3AZ 6250 -AA
In 40/86 - 306 Dur, 113 CL
Ex 88/38 - same , 115 CL
78* overlap
.500 net lift .025 lash

C4AE 6250-B
56/88 - 324 Dur, 106 CL
88/56 - same , same
112* overlap
.508 net lift .025 lash

C8AX 6250-D
60/90 - 330 Dur, 105 CL
94/56 - 330 Dur, 109 CL
116* overlap
.600 net lift .025 lash

C5HM 6250-C
320 Dur x .600 lift
From Magazine

C3AZ 6250-D
306 Dur 4V - 8V

C3AZ 6250-K
324 Dur 4V - 8V
.499 net lift .025 lash
Timing @ .050
In 10/56, 246 dur, 113 CL
Ex 58/7, 245 dur, 115.5 CL
96* overlap
This ones says it only needs 280 lb springs at 1.32
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 02:27:34 AM by frnkeore »
Frank

Joe-JDC

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2020, 09:12:40 AM »
That spring pressure was with hollow stem intake valves and sodium exhaust valves.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

wayne

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2020, 11:26:53 AM »
Thank all of you for your hard work and the good information
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 12:21:07 PM by wayne »

frnkeore

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2020, 12:17:19 PM »
That spring pressure was with hollow stem intake valves and sodium exhaust valves.  Joe-JDC
I don't know about that, Joe. I believe that, that cam is the one that came in the factory LR, with 2.09 valves.

Although it doesn't specify (valve stems), the other 324 cam (C4AE 6250-B), is a much hotter cam and they spec it with 2.19 valves, with 305 lb springs @ 1.32. I might agree that those are hollow stem.
Frank

WerbyFord

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2020, 04:00:34 PM »
Thanks all for posting all this cam data.
I’ve been trying to unravel this mystery for sure for years now, as have others.
Here are a couple threads from 12 years ago.

Was the c2az-a 406 cam actually DETUNED for 1962?

081118 thread “FE 1960 352 HP camshaft specifications”
https://www.fordfe.com/viewtopic.php?p=514063#p514063

Note that in this link, Steve Christ (pg85) lists them all as .480 net lift, .286 lobe lift, 352HP and early 390HP, but strangely, .298 lobe and .500 net lift for the late 390HP and 406.

Per x4rdtech in #7, why would Ford have gone from 1-pc retainers in 1960 to the vanilla 2-pc grocery store retainers in 1961? Were they trying to get away with cheap parts and so detuned the cam for 1962? Or maybe that was not a 390HP engine.

Note also the Gas Ronda story. It is so rare to see that kind of courage.


081204 PART 2
https://www.fordfe.com/viewtopic.php?p=517166#p517166

In this thread, Dennis posted the specs on the 352/360HP c0ae-b cam as having the same lift and events as the c3ae-d 427/410-4v cam, that is, 306 duration and .298 lobe lift.

So what’s with the .480 net lift cam?

Same thread, RJP notes that c2az-a with .480 net lift, (the initial 406 cam I’d guess) was also the SERVICE cam for the 352HP and 390HP.

I think it’s pretty clear that the c0ae-b was .298 lobe, .500 net, 306 advertised, same as the 427-4v cam, and used on the 352HP and 390HP. So was the c2az-a 406 cam actually DETUNED for 1962 to only .480 net lift with the c2az-a cam? As I noted already, you’d only lose a couple hp if the duration was kept the same (measured the same way!) so it would be a pretty invisible street backfit for service.

So I think the big issue now is, if the c2az-a 406 cam was .480 net lift, was the DURATION (eg at .050 .100 lobe etc) the same or was that detuned as well.

Maybe Dennis will appear and chime in with some vintage Ford engineering info eg specs on the c0ae-b and c2az-a to compare them!

EDIT, just found this thread from May 2007.
070514 thread, well it looks like Dennis already DID chime in, before the Nov-Dec 2008 threads:

https://www.fordfe.com/c2az-6250-a-has-anyone-heard-of-this-cam-t54635.html

“tbolt2:C2AZ-6250-A converts to a C2AE-6250-A.

The specs on a the C2AE-A cam is same as C0AE-B, except induction hardened and oil quenched lobes.

The COAE-B cam is 306/306 deg, cam lift is .298355" x 1.76 ratio = .525" less lash is around .500". 

Regards,
Dennis”

OK then where did the .480 net lift come from??? It’s not just in the Steve Christ book, it’s also in Bill Carroll’s FOOOOOORRD book pg 53-54.


« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 07:47:12 PM by WerbyFord »

frnkeore

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2020, 05:18:08 PM »
Here is some more "Cam Mania"!

It appears that Ford made more cams than I had ever imagined, including at least 3  hydraulics, for the 427.

This is out of a book by, Pat Ganahl. First copy right in '79. It includes the cam markings.
Frank

WerbyFord

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2020, 08:08:52 PM »
Frank,
I think those tables started out in Muscle Parts Supplement #1 from 1969. My dad got me one new for $1.
Knowing him he probably got it free, he just brought the whole set home one day in 1974.

I only see 2 "427" hydraulics in there:
c8az-a = the 1968 427/390hp Cougar cam, same grind as late 390GT & 428CJ.
c8ax-c = the "C" cam, 220-230 duration at .050, .289 .289 lobe. Should say 428CJ not 427 though.
Surprisingly, the "C" cam is listed as NHRA Stock Legal for the 428CJ, even though I never heard of this cam or any "X" part in a factory car. Here is the text from the NHRA Blueprint file:

335  428  .008    Dish w/n  .080 A 10.25 cc      L    2097/1660 481/490      .026      Outer w Damper  10       
NOTES:
10-Optional cam, lift = .527/.527

Not only is the "C" cam listed as NHRA Legal for the 428CJ, but note they show the lift as 527. The only way to get that is to mis-type the lobe lift from .289 to .299, giving .527 "or so" lift. The "C" cam was meant to be used with 1.76 adjustables and hard-ring antipump lifters, set to 0 lash for revs, for .509 lift but not .527 lift. Yet another error in the NHRA files - some a lot worse than this. And, like allowing the 428PI intake as Stock Legal on the 390GT, yet another gift. They gave Chevy some gifts too.

What's NOT in this chart is any info on the infamous c0ae-b and c2az-a cams - the solids start with the c3az-d and c3az-aa 427 solids. These charts DO have .100 lobe lift events, so you can darn near extrapolate to get a good guess at .050 events. Warning though, there are errors in this chart too! Doggone Numbers!

frnkeore

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2020, 12:21:56 AM »
Werby,
Yes, I noticed a few errors in that info, like the *C4a5 and that some of the lifts, didn't vive. I thought it would be informative since it had C0 & C2 cams and had the cam markings, to help people that have cams on the shelf they might ID with it

The 3rd Hyd cam, is the C8AX -B in my second picture in post #47, though it has no timing with it but, it shows it did exist.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 12:27:04 AM by frnkeore »
Frank

Royce

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2020, 09:36:25 AM »
 Very interesting but complex discussion.. My head is starting to hurt.  lol  I think we need to make a call out to collect all these various cams and find someone to run them on a Cam Dr. to sort all these numbers out...
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block
800hp 476 cu in Edsel MEL.. 2 time EMC winner
1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car  Currently engineless,  Boss 9 transplant coming soon.
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1958 Mercury Monterey  430cu in 400hp 3x2 Super Marauder
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1960 Starliner 352/360hp, real one
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project

WerbyFord

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2020, 11:04:23 AM »
Frank,
Good stuff!
I cant find any other info on a c8ax-B cam, but here is a link with the same info you posted.
Was it real? What was it? Nobody knows!
http://www.mustangtek.com/Library6/PDF/ShopTips6-5.pdf

BTW that mustangtek area is full of Shop Tips, including 6-7 which details the 428CJ, noting the “production” version had optional 428PI aluminum intake and the c8ax-C cam. My bet is that these were in factory production as 427 Mustangs. NHRA allowed the “C” cam in Stock Class but not the aluminum intake.

Regarding the c2az-a SOLID cam and a possible detune from the .500 net lift of c0ae-b down to .480 net lift (maybe!) for c2az-a:

Ford did have this habit & the chart you posted from Muscle Parts / Ganahl shows it. Consider the 390/340-6v HYDRAULIC Bird:
1962=c2sz-a 286-286 advertised duration, 165-165 at .100 lobe (“about” 200-200 at .050 lobe)
1963=c3sz-a 270-270 advertised duration, 153-153 at .100 lobe (“about” 186-186 at .050 lobe)
The same 390/340hp-6v Bird engine cam got “detuned” from 1962 to 1963.

Did the change from c0ae-b to c2az-a SOLID cam do this same kind of detuning, with a net lift cut from .500 to .480, and maybe a duration cut too?
The info Dennis has posted says no, but with Ford you never know for sure until you measure.

Royce:
Totally agree on measuring whatever cams we can. Pedigree might be a problem.
RJP and I plan to degree his c2az-a in the car as soon as COVID gets out of here. Whenever THAT is.

Royce

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2020, 08:31:05 AM »
Werby  If you can find a cam Dr. and the cams  I would step up to provide some of the shipping costs..as far as pedigree.. Do the cams have the Ford part # on them?.. I may have the 63 6v tbird cam around here somewhere..
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block
800hp 476 cu in Edsel MEL.. 2 time EMC winner
1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car  Currently engineless,  Boss 9 transplant coming soon.
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1958 Mercury Monterey  430cu in 400hp 3x2 Super Marauder
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1960 Starliner 352/360hp, real one
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project

Royce

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2020, 01:13:21 PM »
Well It looks like I own a 60 Starliner 352/360 horse..  The engine is coming out next week. It was represented as "gone through". I am going to pull the heads off to see what that really means.. I am going to check the cam and see if I can determine if it is original..After I re-assemble it, I would like to make a trip to the CC dyno and see if it really makes 360 horse.. 

Side note:   The chicken coupe dyno is actually not in a chicken coupe.  It resides in a re-purposed milk house, attached to the FE Power research dept and CNC machining center, that was once a dairy barn...
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block
800hp 476 cu in Edsel MEL.. 2 time EMC winner
1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car  Currently engineless,  Boss 9 transplant coming soon.
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1958 Mercury Monterey  430cu in 400hp 3x2 Super Marauder
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1960 Starliner 352/360hp, real one
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project

turbohunter

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2020, 04:02:59 PM »
Side note:   The chicken coupe dyno is actually not in a chicken coupe.  It resides in a re-purposed milk house, attached to the FE Power research dept and CNC machining center, that was once a dairy barn...
Although it does have fowl in there every now and then.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'67 Fairlane
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon