Author Topic: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?  (Read 10648 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4801
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2020, 08:08:33 PM »
I guess my line of thinking was that the TFS heads will most likely overshoot the hp goals by a good bit just by themselves. 

I can see it both ways though.  Can certainly boost the power even higher if he does both down the road.  A 460 would be a little air hungry though with some 240 cfm heads and its hard to justify porting them.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Chrisss31

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2020, 09:32:26 PM »
What is the gig with Blair's CNC ported iron heads?  I don't remember any of the build details except 600 hp. 390" at EMC.

KMcCullah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2020, 09:34:14 PM »
Several builders here have done some dang frisky 4.250 arm 428's lately. 500HP with a 5500ish RPM limit may be a stretch with untouched C6 heads, but you'll come close. I think with a 4.250 arm and 11:1 compression, 500+ FT/lbs torque will be easypeasy with a rumpety cam. That will roll your Cougar down the road like a boss. Some 3:70 or 3:91 gears would make it a pretty mean hotrod. My .02 on your C6 heads..... When the new wears off all that torque, I'd send the heads to Blair for the EMC special. And Port match your RPM intake to match. Gonna need sticky tires.  8)
Kevin McCullah


WerbyFord

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 335
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2020, 10:03:59 PM »
If I might suggest, since you don't have a dyno available, your not really going to know what your actual HP output will be so, when you get the flow numbers for your heads, let Werby, Gonk it, for 500 HP and build to that spec. That way, you'll have something in the ball part and can say, it's a 500 HP engine, with some backing.

If you're willing to travel 300 miles, there is a SF901, in Medford to hook it up to. I don't know if Redding is closer but, there might be one there, too.
I actually do have access to a dyno. It's a mobile chassis dyno. It's about a 10 second walk from my work.  :)
I'd like Werby to gonk it as well, if he feels like doing it.

Of course!

I played with the Gonkulator already, and with "stock" 428CJ or c6ae-r clone heads, about the best I can get at 10.0 CR is about 460hp, and that's with a BIG solid cam shoved in there. So I figured, nope, those heads wont do it.

But, you're saying your current heads ALREADY made 500hp on that other 428 - so I'm wondering if your c6ae-r heads have more work in them than you think. Do you have flow numbers on them?
Or, do you have the specs on that 500hp 428 they were on?
That way I could sort of back out what the head flows might have been to make that 500hp they made.

410bruce

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 349
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2020, 10:18:48 PM »
If I might suggest, since you don't have a dyno available, your not really going to know what your actual HP output will be so, when you get the flow numbers for your heads, let Werby, Gonk it, for 500 HP and build to that spec. That way, you'll have something in the ball part and can say, it's a 500 HP engine, with some backing.

If you're willing to travel 300 miles, there is a SF901, in Medford to hook it up to. I don't know if Redding is closer but, there might be one there, too.
I actually do have access to a dyno. It's a mobile chassis dyno. It's about a 10 second walk from my work.  :)
I'd like Werby to gonk it as well, if he feels like doing it.

Of course!

I played with the Gonkulator already, and with "stock" 428CJ or c6ae-r clone heads, about the best I can get at 10.0 CR is about 460hp, and that's with a BIG solid cam shoved in there. So I figured, nope, those heads wont do it.

But, you're saying your current heads ALREADY made 500hp on that other 428 - so I'm wondering if your c6ae-r heads have more work in them than you think. Do you have flow numbers on them?
Or, do you have the specs on that 500hp 428 they were on?
That way I could sort of back out what the head flows might have been to make that 500hp they made.
Thanks, Werby, I really appreciate it!
I just went out and looked the heads over a bit. I don't believe any port or chamber work has been done. Poked my finger down the ports and it feels like rough casting all the way to the valve.

I do believe the previous owner was running some sort of factory dual-four barrel aluminum intake on his 428. He was running a custom hydraulic flat tappet with 230ish intake and 240 something exhaust duration at .050. Long tube headers. Don't remember the compression. I think it was in a '67 Shelby.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 10:20:58 PM by 410bruce »

410bruce

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 349
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2020, 10:24:54 PM »
Hey guys, as an aside here, what would be the value of a usable 428CJ intake and set of exhaust manifolds be?
Thinking of selling them to offset the cost a bit, of the heads or stroker kit.

Thanks.

WerbyFord

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 335
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2020, 11:21:51 PM »
"I do believe the previous owner was running some sort of factory dual-four barrel aluminum intake on his 428. He was running a custom hydraulic flat tappet with 230ish intake and 240 something exhaust duration at .050. Long tube headers. Don't remember the compression. I think it was in a '67 Shelby."

OK well with 2" dyno headers and 11.0 CR (plausible) I can Gonkulate 500hp from that other 428 and a 235-245 hyd roller cam. That's with just c6ae-r headers, 2.09 x 1.66 valves, maybe grinding the exhaust roof back up to where the earlier and CJ heads are, that's it. So that could be about what you have.

Given those heads, 10.0 CR, 1.75 supercomps, Ed RPM intake, 800 double pumper, and a 260-270-110 solid cam (DaleP has run this in his 9.90s Mustang), I'm Gonkulating:
Torq 479 at 4400
Powr 467 at 5800
2" dyno headers might add another 10-15hp on top. So you're close but not there.

Stroking that and going 30-over to 462cid Gonkulates to
Torq 512 at 4300
Powr 474 at 5700 (doesn't add much, the heads are limiting)

With the same cam, same 428cid, I just plopped TFS heads on there at about 10.5 CR due to smaller chambers for:
Torq 546 at 4600
Powr 548 at 6000
No kidding, more torque than the stroker hit. Velocity and a good burn, 50 years of technology later.

I guess you could do stroker AND the heads if you need that much, or like buying tires.





rockhouse66

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 251
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2020, 07:08:17 AM »
This info from my build with the R heads might be useful.

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=9006.0

BTW - this engine is for sale (shameless plug).
Jim

Gregwill16

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 464
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2020, 09:23:37 AM »
There you go! Just buy Jim's engine and sell all the 428 stuff to fund a large portion.
If you want the 428 and the bottom end is solid, I would buy a set of TFS heads.

410bruce

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 349
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2020, 08:34:56 AM »
Well, I'm attempting to do both a stroker kit and the heads. Have some parts as well as a 2006 Harley Sportster 1200C up for sale to help fund this madness. lol.

Thank you everyone for your input and words of advise.

I'll more than likely use this thread to document the coming together of this engine.

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3918
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2020, 09:32:04 AM »
Well, I'm attempting to do both a stroker kit and the heads. Have some parts as well as a 2006 Harley Sportster 1200C up for sale to help fund this madness. lol.

Thank you everyone for your input and words of advise.

I'll more than likely use this thread to document the coming together of this engine.

If the vehicle is worth the expense, you will be VERY happy. 
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

brettco

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2020, 06:42:55 PM »
Well, I'm attempting to do both a stroker kit and the heads. Have some parts as well as a 2006 Harley Sportster 1200C up for sale to help fund this madness. lol.

Thank you everyone for your input and words of advise.

I'll more than likely use this thread to document the coming together of this engine.

   461bruce.

67xr7cat

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 315
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2020, 11:33:29 PM »
Interesting thing can build a 10:1 run of the mill 390 with TFS OFB heads, a hyd roller cam, and an Perforner RPM intake and make 500 hp. All easy to find stuff and not stupidly priced. Makes one wonder why both with 428 blocks and strokers at that level.

chilly460

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2020, 07:11:29 AM »
Couple factors at the 500hp level.  You can absolutely do it with a 390, but if you have a heavy car or mild gearing, it requires enough cam that it may not be "streetable" for that application.  A 445 or 462 would be able to lug around a heavy car with better manners and still hit 500hp.  The other reason is the "might as well" factor.  You have a 390, in a 500hp build you're going to be putting pistons in it, and at a minimum rebuilding the stock rods with good bolts, and getting the crank ground/polished.  At that point, it's not a big jump in $$ to go to a stroker deal, so many guys will go that route.  At the 500hp level, you'd be turning enough rpm to make the stock rods questionable, so peace of mind going with new rods as well. 

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3918
    • View Profile
Re: 428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2020, 07:31:23 AM »
Interesting thing can build a 10:1 run of the mill 390 with TFS OFB heads, a hyd roller cam, and an Perforner RPM intake and make 500 hp. All easy to find stuff and not stupidly priced. Makes one wonder why both with 428 blocks and strokers at that level.

I will throw my opinion in, it's free and worth every penny :)

Assuming the same quality of parts and machining are used for both in other areas, the difference in cost is:

- Crankshaft - add 450 bucks assuming you mag and turn the 390 crank
- Balancing - add 150 bucks for internal balancing
- Connecting rods - subtract 150 bucks for BB connecting rods

The rest is really 1 for 1 assuming a build at the same level, so that's about 450 dollars more.

A 396 at 500 HP would be 1.26 HP per cid, a 445 would be 561 HP at that level, and a 462 could be 582 HP, however if the goal was similar, you could build it it much more well mannered.  A few 445s and 461s in the dyno section that do almost exactly that too

Hard to beat a stroker with good heads.  One thing to bring it down is stock rods, stock crank, cheaper TRW/Speedpro pistons.  However both strength and potential valve clearance, not to mention power loss of a less than optimum piston/ring combo might not get you to your 500 with a 390.

One thing I do agree with completely is the value of a 445 vs a 462.  If you have a 428 block, a 461/462 is a real nice piece, but for those without a block, the 445 can be a very wise choice just for the difference in the cost of the core itself

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch