428 Build--Stroker Kit, Heads, or Run With What I Have?

[Rory428]

Concerning the small block Toploader/FE/bellhousing story, I have to wonder how many people have actually tried a SB trans in a FE, and how many are just passing on "old wives tales". I have a small block 1 1/16" wide ratio Toploader (originally from a 66 Fairlane 289, according to the ID info on the Dave Kee site), behind a early 60s car bellhousing, which is bolted to a 428 CJ. After hearing all the warnings about the input tip bottoming out in the crank, I bolted the bellhousing to the assembled 428, with no clutch or flywheel, and found that the splined section of the input cleared the pilot bushing by a comfortable amount, and after measuring the distance between the back of the pilot bushing, to the transmission surface , and comparing to the end of the input to the front of the trans case, discovered  about 1/2" of room between the input tip to the bottom of the cranks rear bore. Also, I just measured 3 different small block inputs (Toploader, Jerico, and a T5), all the tips averaged about 1.16" from the end of the splines. I also measured the rear crank bore of one of my 1UB 428 cranks, , there was just over 3/4" of depth below the pilot bushing step. And when I stuck a SB input into the crank bore, with no pilot bushing, it was obvious that the larger, splined section would contact the back of the pilot bushing , before the tip was even close to bottoming in the crank. That said, maybe Ford had some different depth car bellhousings, or maybe some FE cranks have a shallower rear bore than others, but in my case, the un touched small block input fit with plenty of clearance. And for the record, I have over 500 "shakedown" miles on my 59 now, and engine, trans, and clutch are all doing fine. As for the engine, I`m cheap, so I tend to use what I have laying around, and I can`t imagine selling a good 428 block,that I already have ,in order to use a 390 block instead. Also I don`t necessarily build an engine to a HP number, rather I decide what I want to engine to do, and select the parts accordingly. Too many guys read too many car books, and end up with too many expensive parts in an engine, in order to "hit" a HP number, and end up with a combination that lacks the driveability they were hoping for, and if they ever do take the car to the track, often performs well below their expectations. If your main goal is to wave a dyno sheet around, rather than have a comfortable driver, or a strong runner at the track, because of mismatched parts, thats different than how I look at it.

[wayne]

Rory 428 some good points everyone is good at spending other peoples cash dynos are fun and a good tool but thats all they are is a tool. Spend what you have get the car set up to handle your power cal tracks gears ect  big power is no good if you cant get it to the ground.  On input shafts all cars back then came with a 3 speed std did they make a short input 3 speed for a big block i have seen bw t10 trans on lakewood bells

[410bruce]

Okay, after much deliberation, have decided to go with the TFS heads.

Mr. Lykins to the white courtesy phone, please.   

[My427stang]

Concerning the small block Toploader/FE/bellhousing story, I have to wonder how many people have actually tried a SB trans in a FE, and how many are just passing on "old wives tales". I have a small block 1 1/16" wide ratio Toploader (originally from a 66 Fairlane 289, according to the ID info on the Dave Kee site), behind a early 60s car bellhousing, which is bolted to a 428 CJ. After hearing all the warnings about the input tip bottoming out in the crank, I bolted the bellhousing to the assembled 428, with no clutch or flywheel, and found that the splined section of the input cleared the pilot bushing by a comfortable amount, and after measuring the distance between the back of the pilot bushing, to the transmission surface , and comparing to the end of the input to the front of the trans case, discovered  about 1/2" of room between the input tip to the bottom of the cranks rear bore. Also, I just measured 3 different small block inputs (Toploader, Jerico, and a T5), all the tips averaged about 1.16" from the end of the splines. I also measured the rear crank bore of one of my 1UB 428 cranks, , there was just over 3/4" of depth below the pilot bushing step. And when I stuck a SB input into the crank bore, with no pilot bushing, it was obvious that the larger, splined section would contact the back of the pilot bushing , before the tip was even close to bottoming in the crank. That said, maybe Ford had some different depth car bellhousings, or maybe some FE cranks have a shallower rear bore than others, but in my case, the un touched small block input fit with plenty of clearance. And for the record, I have over 500 "shakedown" miles on my 59 now, and engine, trans, and clutch are all doing fine. As for the engine, I`m cheap, so I tend to use what I have laying around, and I can`t imagine selling a good 428 block,that I already have ,in order to use a 390 block instead. Also I don`t necessarily build an engine to a HP number, rather I decide what I want to engine to do, and select the parts accordingly. Too many guys read too many car books, and end up with too many expensive parts in an engine, in order to "hit" a HP number, and end up with a combination that lacks the driveability they were hoping for, and if they ever do take the car to the track, often performs well below their expectations. If your main goal is to wave a dyno sheet around, rather than have a comfortable driver, or a strong runner at the track, because of mismatched parts, thats different than how I look at it.

There are a page full of SBF Toploader variants, and aftermarket input shafts that have been around since who knows when and swapped back when these were a dime a dozen.  If you are wondering about my experience, I have likely stabbed as many trannies as anyone.  However, the only SBF Toploader into an FE I did, measured exactly the same length as depth and I decided to knock a bit off the tip.  I did do a SBF TKO (pre-500/600, completely different animal) but it took both spline and overall length cut, and it was a truck bell to boot.   

The difference between you and the others (and me too) is you check, and you measured more than you needed to by a WIDE extent.  Measuring needs to be done here regardless.  If that is going be a debate, then we are all just being grumpy

I too would go with the 428 block, unless somehow you could end up with a better TFS 445 by selling the 428.  I could see that if the 428 had some core shift issues or if it was a CJ block that could bring some good money

I will say, this is where a HP request gets everyone shooting all around each other on how to do it better, it always comes down to what does the owner want the car to do less than the HP.  Like the 400 hp 390 in another post, there are 50 ways to Sunday to get there, but they will all behave differently.  Luckily, Bruce is open to ideas, and I do think the next step after this should be monoleafs and Caltracs, another easy way to get power to the ground.

[410bruce]

Thank you, Ross. I am very open to ideas.

i would like to apologize if this thread has caused any strife or an argumentative spirit among the FE brethren. It most certainly was not my intention.

I appreciate everyones input here.

[My427stang]

Thank you, Ross. I am very open to ideas.

i would like to apologize if this thread has caused any strife or an argumentative spirit among the FE brethren. It most certainly was not my intention.

I appreciate everyones input here.

It's not, Rory is a sharp guy, you got it right as brethren...brothers wrestle. 

[67xr7cat]

Don't think I am against 428 blocks. Just not everyone has a few laying around and seems everyone is asking $2k and up anymore for one and not talking good date codes either.

[410bruce]

Placed an order with Brent. Pistons, rings--and heads. 

Had purchased a fairly mild custom hydraulic flat tappet cam and lifters from him earlier for the 410 and according to him, my goal should be met with this cam/head combo. 

[My427stang]

Good decision, should be strong