Author Topic: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.  (Read 916 times)

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Blueoval77

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To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« on: August 01, 2020, 04:48:19 PM »
So I have a 427 Marine thats seen some action and is now at .050 over . I am sure this question has been asked here but times change and so does technology and information so im going to put it out there again. Ive got wall thicknesses all over the map in this but all the cylinders have thin spots hovering around .090 .
What is the minimum wall thickness that anyone in this position has successfully run one of these at without grouting the block ? I am talking power levels above 650 HP and compression around 11.5 . With an occasional sniff of smelling salts.... When that all fails . What sleeves have yielded the best results ?
Thanks for your time.

67xr7cat

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2020, 05:31:37 PM »
Depends on where the thin spots are and overall condition of the block. Also depends on use, rpm, detonation, etc...  I would not sleeve it unless you are going to sleeve it down to 428 size.  The overbore needed to put a sleeve in beck to std. 427 bore most cases results in block failure.

I'd do a half fill and run it or sell the block and buy a BBM or pond block.

Blueoval77

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2020, 05:45:25 PM »
Thanks my immediate thought was to sleeve it down with Ductile sleeves but wanted others opinions...

wowens

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2020, 07:38:30 PM »
2nd sleeve it to 428 bore and half fill. Cross bolted mains,  4.13 bore, 4.25 bore, 455 inch torque monster.

jayb

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2020, 08:23:03 PM »
It's never a good idea to sleeve all 8 bores, you will get cracks on the deck between the sleeves after a few heat cycles and the block will leak at the deck surface.  The only way to do it would be to keep the OD of the sleeves almost the same diameter as the existing bore, and go to a smaller bore like a 390 or maybe a 428 bore. 

Depending on where the thin spots are, you might just consider going up to 60 over and running it as is.  The 492" FE dyno mule used in my book was a 60 over sideoiler block; one bore had a thin spot of 0.079", and another had a couple thin spots of 0.086", and it made 675 HP on the dyno and was flogged mercilessly during my intake testing.  It all depends on where the thin spots are.  Major and minor thrust surfaces are bad places for thin spots (especially major thrust surfaces), but the front and rear of the cylinders are much less critical.  Further, the lower the thin spot in the bore, the less of an issue it will be.  Also don't forget that factory 427 bores have a cloverleafed shape outline, so they are thicker at 45 degrees, 135, 225, and 315.  This helps with the strength of the bores.

The sonic map of the 427 sideoiler block used for my dyno mule is in my book, if you have a copy. 
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Blueoval77

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2020, 08:42:44 PM »
If I use the 428 sized Ductile Iron Darton Sleeves I then would not be taking the entire 427 sleeve out therefore avoiding the cracking issue correct ? The more I think on it I should have never bought the sonic tester and just ran it...   8) . if the .050 cleans up wouldnt I just be better leaving as is or is there a piston availability issue ?

Thanks.

winr1

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2020, 10:51:05 PM »
What about sleeves with a flange on top and the block deck counter bored for the flange to fit in ??

I read several posts here about CCJ and others doing this


I rebuilt more than a few 6-71 engines, the sleeve has o-rings on the outside to seal

They push in by hand



Could one machine a tiny grove on the bottom of the sleeve with a silicone o-ring to seal at the bottom of the block ??



Ricky.

jayb

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2020, 09:51:17 AM »
If I use the 428 sized Ductile Iron Darton Sleeves I then would not be taking the entire 427 sleeve out therefore avoiding the cracking issue correct ? The more I think on it I should have never bought the sonic tester and just ran it...   8) . if the .050 cleans up wouldnt I just be better leaving as is or is there a piston availability issue ?

Thanks.

Depends on the OD of the Darton sleeve, but you would probably still have the same issue.  The problem is you are removing material between the bores at the deck, and that will turn that into a weak area on a stock block.  Lots of people have tried to sleeve all 8 bores on an FE, they crack on the deck after running almost every time.  Especially since you are looking at a higher HP build, my advice would be to stay away from that approach.

By the way, sleeving every other bore will work fine, you just don't want to sleeve two adjacent bores.  Maybe if you've got a couple of really bad ones and they're not next to each other, just sleeve those.  I've got a 428CJ with a sleeve in #5 that has been running great for almost 40 years.

With custom pistons there is no piston availability issue for any bore, but you would want to check for availability of rings.  Certainly .060 over rings are available, I don't know about .050 over...
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 09:53:10 AM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Tommy-T

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2020, 12:18:23 PM »
I don't think I've owned a 427 block that doesn't have a spot or 2 that isn't .090 or less.

Don't let it freak you out.

You can go .060 easily if it's .050 now, or have it honed straight and have some pistons made to that size, Easily done nowadays.

Or...you can give the block to me if you don't want it anymore.

As far as 8 sleeves go, been there and done that. Don't do it. It will run fine for a while...and then coolant starts to mystically disappear.

TomP

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2020, 10:27:41 PM »
Is it .050" over or is it 4.28" bore? That is a very common ring side and there are oversize file fit rings which will allow up to 4.285" which is over .050".  Leave it alone if it doesn't need boring. Going to .060} over is a less common ring size.

cammerfe

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2020, 10:56:09 PM »
Carl Holbrook used to sleeve all eight cylinders in a block by boring it out to the water and then putting in thick-wall sleeves. Then he'd have the works all furnace-brazed together. Then he had to completely re-machine the block to get it all flat and square and back to size.

KS

Blueoval77

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2020, 11:48:02 PM »
Thanks for sharing the experience guys . I see diamond has an off the shelf .050 for my combination so lets see how it all shakes out. The crank which is a very strange bird is still at the Spa getting some war wounds fixed up. The whole thing will most definitely be an odd ball all said and done . I will post some pics up as it all finds its way back together. In the end I guess there isnt much to lose , if it spits up a liner I can then know who was the weak link and just have that one sleeved. Of multiples , whatever , as long as they arent adjacent. I had read somewhere , cant remember now about the welding of the sleeves together but honestly at that point you would really have to be in love with a  block to go that deep when you can just buy a new one.

Tom its looking like its 4.280 to 4.285 . 

By the way , I went around and around this thing with the tester countless times and all the bores have no less than .125 in the clover leaf portions with the ends having damn near .250
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 01:47:06 AM by Blueoval77 »

Chuck

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2020, 11:27:25 AM »
On the topic of dry sleeves, which need to run tight for heat transfer...
What year did they start putting o-rings on 6-71 sleeves?

machoneman

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Re: To Sleeve , or NOT to sleeve , the age old question.
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2020, 01:05:55 PM »
Carl Holbrook used to sleeve all eight cylinders in a block by boring it out to the water and then putting in thick-wall sleeves. Then he'd have the works all furnace-brazed together. Then he had to completely re-machine the block to get it all flat and square and back to size.

KS

Many a Pro Stock 351C drag race teams of yore did the same and used an Illinois-based shop and Jack Roush's place to do the same (all 8, furnace brazing). Yet in almost all cases, the race teams advised this was a major, expensive pain and was reserved for 1/4 milers with no concern over minimal coolant leakages as the blocks were later, after block filler came in vogue, also 1/2 or full-filled with grout. 

Sorry almost to post this as Bill Coon is the article's main focus. Most here, me too, no fan of his later hijinks and thievery.

http://www.351c.net/wiki/Magazine%20Articles/engine%20building/big%20boss%20sleeves%20ss%2012%201978.pdf


« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 03:45:00 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag