Author Topic: Cross bolting cost?  (Read 2281 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

plovett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1334
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2020, 06:34:57 PM »
Thanks for the responses guys!  Keep 'em coming.  I like BP's idea of just crossbolting number 2 and 4 mains and leaving number 3 alone.

Would a half-fill of Hardblok reinforce the area between the cam and mains?

I know I am going to have to pay a considerable amount to crossbolt the block, nothing on an FE is particularly cheap, but I want to do it in a cost effective (relatively) fashion.

pl
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 06:44:40 PM by plovett »

plovett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1334
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2020, 06:41:01 PM »
Have you considered a girdle? I’m putting this on to try out. I’ve never done one before, not sure where we land as far as a strength increase if any. It looks beneficial.

I like the idea of a girdle on a Y-block design like the FE or big block Chrysler where it ties into the pan rail.  I think the halo girdles are not worth too much.  However, I like the idea of crossbolt caps better than the girdle.  As for the machining needed for a girdle, I am sure Brent knows.

paulie
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 06:45:46 PM by plovett »

plovett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1334
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2020, 06:43:23 PM »
Paulie, my guy said 750 to install caps,  I'd say 750-1000 is realistic. 

You didn't ask, but a good mag, square deck, torque plate hone, and (if required) tapping all oil galleys, runs about 860 here, if the block needs to be abraded, he adds 100.  I install cam bearings myself, so not sure what that would add, my guess says 100, same with sonic checking, I think 150 around here

Knowing the new project, my gut says, a good square decked, magged, sonic checked block, finished with pistons fitted, ready for assembly and the caps would bounce between 1600-1800 depending on what kind of additional work was needed. 

Good machinists are a dying breed around here, COVID decimated what was already thin

Thanks.   My 427 block is likely too rough for practical repair and use.  So I am looking to use my current 428 block or buy another 428 block.

paulie

fekbmax

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1274
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2020, 07:03:43 PM »
I cross bolt and girdle all my standard FE race blocks. Have been using Tim's girdle for quite a few years but it in no way is just as simple as cutting the caps down and bolting it on. I know that alto of guys may just do that and have no issues but as Brent said and Barry has said in the past theres quite a bit of machining that needs to be done. Block needs to be square decked, I recommend all the way around, but pan rails certainly. Align hone with girdle in place. So your looking at fitting cross bolt caps, squaring block, cutting caps, align hone, plus your decking and boring. If your bloc filling then that should be the first thing you do before any machining at all. Everything needs to be done in the proper order. Its A lot of work to do it properly but will make a good solid foundation of a FE block. JMO.
Keith.  KB MAX Racing.

pbf777

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2020, 07:18:36 PM »
The main girdles are nice, but they are a machining nightmare.


     Well, that's what they pay us the "BIG BUCKS" for,.......... right!        ::)


     
You’re making me nervous. All I did was set it on my Bridgeport, and cut the caps down the thickness of the spacers. Hopefully it’s ready for a main home now.


      Yes, some Bridgeport work was a nice start but,...........I'd be nervous if I were you!          :-\

       
     
When we did one here, we had to make a pass across the pan rails.


      Yep, I would consider it mandatory!             ;)


     
       Comes with everything you need. No machining, with full Instructions.


       What is this, something from RONCO! (anybody remember them?  O.K. it's a joke!)  And I thought we southerners were bad for selling Yankees swamp land here in Florida!            :o 

       Without covering all of the processes involved, but perhaps prepare one for what one might consider:  On the FE for this stud girdle fitment one would want to establish the dimensional relationships of the five main bearing bores bore radius loops, to the main bearing cap saddles, to the main cap bolt posts in height, to the pan rail with timing cover; ideally, this both as sets each individually, and as a set of ten including the circumference of the block and timing cover pan rail needing to be square in dimension.  The problem is after blueprinting out these dimensions as the block assembly is received from the O.E., not to mention issues created from service, including previous secondary machine work, so invariably...............

         
.        ........there is machining involved.  Lots of it if you want to be accurate.


     And perhaps some compromises, as one is following the previous machining operation of someone else, generally of less accuracy, but none the less involved the removal of material one can't readily put back.           ;)

     We have done this many times, but I still haven't seen the "BIG BUCKS" yet, as few realize what's really involved, the associated time and tooling, nor appreciate at least in what I would consider a proper fitment effort.  And yea, there are or will be plenty of testimonials of: Naaaw, all you gotta do is this and that and your done, you don't need to do any of that other B.S.!  But all I can say is GOOD-LUCK!          ::)

     Scott.
       

475fetoploader

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2020, 08:20:57 PM »
This is a great topic. I truly love the knowledge coming from this forum. I made several assumptions about my used block. I made several assumptions about the relationship of a girdle to a main line. One being if it’s aline honed, (bearing clearances coming out correct) you should have a solid foundation. My conversation with DG machine this week will look considerably different concerning my main caps, now that I have participated in this thread. This is not a replaceable forum. The other assumptions I made, were that the previous machine work, were correct, this block has been square decked for a prior build. I put the 4 outer pistons in, and checked deck height. All 4 pistons are .004 from the deck. That’s not blueprinted, that’s lucky rod center to center. I truly thank the experienced machinists, that take time to comment.
1967 Fairlane 474 inch f.e. Top loader
1975 factory hiboy 428 4speed
Lots of big block Chevy stuff for sale since I finally grew up and got back to my roots

Drew Pojedinec

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2035
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2020, 08:50:42 PM »
It is indeed a great thread.

I maintain my point of view that for my usage, If I had to put $1000 into crossbolts, I’d just save my pennies and buy an aftermarket block.
I’m just a dude tho, don’t need to meet any sort of racing rules.

Nightmist66

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 982
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2020, 10:09:46 PM »
Paulie, I had some custom cross bolt caps made by a local machinist for my block. I for the life of me can't find the receipt for the caps and block machining. He left the bore small so it could be finished to size with a line bore and hone. I found the receipts for the line bore-$250, and the line hone-$80. I had him make the caps to be very close to pan rail level, so it didn't cut into the main webbing much. From what I have seen in pictures, I believe the ProGram caps cut right into the webbing. Here's what mine looks like if you're interested:  http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=7851.0

Bluef100fe / Cody makes or did make some cross bolt caps similar that are close to pan rail level, but require spacers. You would also have extra machining if using on on #3 main to accept the thrust bearing.

One thing I don't care for about the girdle is that yes, it does tie all the mains together, but it is not a registered fit on the pan rail. What I mean is that you are relying on the clamp load alone of the oil pan bolts to hold it down and keep from fretting, because there will be some extent of tolerance in the bolt holes at the pan rail. I suppose you could "pin" the girdle in a couple spots on the pan rail to prevent fretting, but would be extra work. Overall, it looks like a nice piece, just as mentioned though, a lot of careful machine work to make it right. JMO
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 10:19:00 PM by Nightmist66 »
Jared


66 Fairlane GT 390 .035 Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9 inch, 4.71

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3221
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2020, 04:51:48 AM »
To me, all that stuff is unnecessary for 550-600 hp builds.   I've done numerous 390/428 based strokers that make that much power and more, even some pulling engines that have to hold 6500-7000 rpm for 20 seconds straight making that kind of horsepower.  None of them are girdled or cross bolted. 

In my mind, if you're gonna go find a block and pay $1000-1500 for it, then have to put another grand into fancy hardware to make it live, then you're not too far off from an aftermarket block. 

Paulie, I think giving up on that 427 block is a very wise choice.   Not many guys would willing want to touch something like that.   You're trying to quote/price a job that's either gonna cost the builder a ton of money if he holds to his quote, or costs you a ton of money if they start quoting time/materials. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports

e philpott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 719
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2020, 09:01:34 AM »
When I did mine the aftermarket blocks were not out yet , swap meet after swap meet welded up junk 427's were 3000.00 and up for JUNK . So I got tired of that and took all my 390 blocks down to Performance Clinic and he picked out the D2 block that had 7 thick cores and one core off set super thick on one side and only  .115 on a non thrust side , we used that block to make a 416 and I told him I wanted 500 horse power plus a 250 shot of nitrous , Dave told me to buy some cross bolt caps and he'll give it a half fill , still running it hard to this day but never did get the nitrous . I do have a BBM block and Scat Forged crank at Blair's right now that I'm slowly getting money up for the additional parts but life keeps getting in the way of those additional parts

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2020, 09:39:43 AM »
I probably covered a lot of girdle machining in an old post somewhere.

Because the girdle relies upon the oil pan rail and the main cap bolt registers for alignment and position ALL those surfaces need to be straight, square and parallel - otherwise you are inducing a twist into the block each time you tighten it, and that twist can vary depending upon it's location on the pan rail unless you provide location dowel pins.  While these surfaces were important individually, none of these surfaces were critical or referenced to one another in the original manufacturing.

This means the girdle installation process is roughly as follow:

- Line hone mains (unless you assume they assume they are reasonably decent to start off with)

- Use the main line as a reference to square and machine the oil pan rails.

- Use the pan rail as a refence to level and square each of the main cap bolt spot face surfaces.  You kinda need to do this one at a time with the opposite fastener holding the cap in position.

- Use the main studs and pan rail bolts to position the girdle where you want it to "live" and drill it and the block for locating dowel pins so you can always install it in the same position.  Might be a nice idea to add some countersunk fasteners in a few spots to make future assembly easier.

- Measure the distance between the bottom of the girdle and the spot face on each main cap to determine the required spacer heights.  The spacers supplied with a girdle might work, but probably not.  Make some spacers that fit on the lathe...

- Test fit everything.  Don't forget to accommodate for the girdle thickness when mounting oil pump, pump shaft, oil pan pickup, or pickup mounting bracket if using a mid or rear sump pan.  Best check the windage tray as well since the girdle thickness might put the tray into contact with the top of the pickup, etc..  Remember that the girdle will effectively drop the pan location relative to the chassis of the car - some installations are really "tight" down there.

You may now install your "bolt on" part.....no gasket between girdle and block, just some silicone should do the trick.

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6725
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2020, 11:11:27 AM »
So, I'm curious about this because I plan to make a girdle for a 390 block for an upcoming project.  Barry, you said to use the main bearing bores to square the oil pan rail, and that will work to get the pan rail square front to back, but by itself the main bearing bores won't square the pan rail side to side.  The block could be tipped off that main bearing bore axis by some small amount.  Then, if you reference the spot face of the caps from the pan rail, and it isn't aligned quite right, then the spot faces won't be parallel to the bolt heads, which can't be good.

The only way I can see this working is if you have a BHJ fixture to bolt on using the cam bearing bores and the main bearing bores, and then indicate off the surface of the BHJ fixture that is parallel to the block deck to get the pan rail square side to side.  See the photo below.  Is that how this is done?




By the way, this thread really belongs in the technical section, and I will probably move it there soon...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2020, 11:13:25 AM »
Jay - you are correct

pbf777

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2020, 01:36:30 PM »
- Measure the distance between the bottom of the girdle and the spot face on each main cap to determine the required spacer heights. 


     This procedure, as I envision it as described, and I realize that this list is only a short synopsis of the process, but keep in mind the stud girdle plate rarely is found to be truly straight or square as received; so you would be making the stacking heights match the potentially imperfect plane presented by the girdle. Besides, if one executed the other machining operations properly then there should only be one dimension for all ten positions, with perhaps the exception depending, being the rear number five main cap.   And I also realize that there truly is no such thing as "perfect", but we're striving to be as close as our feeble abilities will permit.            :)


.....................,but by itself the main bearing bores won't square the pan rail side to side.  The block could be tipped off that main bearing bore axis by some small amount.  Then, if you reference the spot face of the caps from the pan rail, and it isn't aligned quite right, then the spot faces won't be parallel to the bolt heads, which can't be good.

The only way I can see this working is if you have a BHJ fixture to bolt on using the cam bearing bores and the main bearing bores, and then indicate off the surface of the BHJ fixture that is parallel to the block deck to get the pan rail square side to side.  See the photo below.  Is that how this is done?


      Yea, maybe-sorta, but your inquiry appears to be of bolt heads being parallel to the spot faced seating surfaces upon the main caps?  Who said the bolt holes were drilled and tapped perpendicular to the pan rail surface or parallel to the camshaft bore to main bore center line?  By the intention in the use of the BHJ Block-Tru fixture your implying that the O.E.M. may have presented critical machined surfaces of improper positioning, so why would one believe the bolt holes at least in of the apparent desired accuracy implied of the posting, be as in sync with this plane any better?           ???

      I understand how things seem like they oughta be, but so should others that we already know aren't;  but your intention sounds good, but remember, your following someone else's previous workmanship, sometimes you may have to compromise that which would be ideal for that which is acceptable and reasonable.           :)

      And, that doesn't imply being sloppy, just realistic.              ::)

     
     Scott.

WConley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
  • No longer walking funny!
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2020, 03:25:08 PM »
Forgive the inexperienced FE question.
Does the girdle mod reduce or eliminate the increased likelyhood of block split I an told about between the cam and mains on a 600hp plus engine?
Thanks.

A block girdle as shown above won't do as much to help the FE cracking problem on #2 and #4 mains.  It WILL do a great deal to stabilize the caps / prevent cap walk.

Cross bolts are much more effective because they tie the block skirt directly into the sides of the center caps, to better absorb side loads.  The girdle can't do this as well because it's only on the pan rail plane. 

The girdle also depends upon clamp force to tie to the pan rail.  This is not as solid a connection as the side of the cap being hard up against the skirt.  Little things like this make a huge difference for the loading of the block.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.