Author Topic: Cross bolting cost?  (Read 2283 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

gregaba

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2020, 09:54:31 AM »
Just talked to my machinist this morning about when he will be able to get to my Pro Gram caps install. Looks like 6 more weeks.
He is going to install the caps, and blueprint the block with all the upgraded machine work needed to make the block right.
The cost will be between $800.00 and 1200 for the complete job.
I think this is reasonable for the amount of work involved in the job.
Greg


Dryhoze1

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 39
  • Fe
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2020, 12:07:16 PM »
I've had several done.
QMP out here in southern California has always done mine with great results. Shop located in Chatsworth,CA.
usually $800-1200 after everything is squared up and line honed.
The piece of mind is nice.
Good luck
Brian


I'll upload pic..


Sponsored by nobody.

e philpott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 719
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2020, 12:51:14 PM »
Pro Gram caps look so nice I'd be tempted to buy a clear oil pan if Jay made one

plovett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1334
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2020, 09:36:56 PM »
Paulie, I had some custom cross bolt caps made by a local machinist for my block. I for the life of me can't find the receipt for the caps and block machining. He left the bore small so it could be finished to size with a line bore and hone. I found the receipts for the line bore-$250, and the line hone-$80. I had him make the caps to be very close to pan rail level, so it didn't cut into the main webbing much. From what I have seen in pictures, I believe the ProGram caps cut right into the webbing. Here's what mine looks like if you're interested:  http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=7851.0

Bluef100fe / Cody makes or did make some cross bolt caps similar that are close to pan rail level, but require spacers. You would also have extra machining if using on on #3 main to accept the thrust bearing.

One thing I don't care for about the girdle is that yes, it does tie all the mains together, but it is not a registered fit on the pan rail. What I mean is that you are relying on the clamp load alone of the oil pan bolts to hold it down and keep from fretting, because there will be some extent of tolerance in the bolt holes at the pan rail. I suppose you could "pin" the girdle in a couple spots on the pan rail to prevent fretting, but would be extra work. Overall, it looks like a nice piece, just as mentioned though, a lot of careful machine work to make it right. JMO

Those are gorgeous.

paulie

plovett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1334
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2020, 09:39:33 PM »
I've had several done.
QMP out here in southern California has always done mine with great results. Shop located in Chatsworth,CA.
usually $800-1200 after everything is squared up and line honed.
The piece of mind is nice.
Good luck
Brian


I'll upload pic..

Looks fantastic!  Thanks.

paulie

Falcon67

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1526
    • View Profile
    • Kelly's Hot Rod Page
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2020, 10:06:13 AM »
Quote
A block girdle as shown above won't do as much to help the FE cracking problem on #2 and #4 mains.  It WILL do a great deal to stabilize the caps / prevent cap walk.

I would tend to agree.  I've seen a lot of SBF blocks come apart, split down the middle, oil pump and front main fall off, full cams become 3/4 or 1/2 race cams, etc and things like girdles and those cheesy "braces" that some people install that go across the valley under the intake only serve to keep the pieces together for easier extraction from the vehicle.  As opposed to it falling apart on the engine stand when you remove the pan and intake.   If you want assured block integrity, it's the age for shelling out for a re-engineered aftermarket replacement, or dial the power down.  Even SBF blocks are getting hard to find, that can be machined back into service anyway. 

Said the guy pushing 575+ through a stock D2AE iron Cleveland block.  Just waiting for "that day", when I get to tell the wife "It's time to call Tim Meyer and hand him about $3600".
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 10:11:42 AM by Falcon67 »

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3188
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2020, 06:56:47 PM »
Quote
A block girdle as shown above won't do as much to help the FE cracking problem on #2 and #4 mains.  It WILL do a great deal to stabilize the caps / prevent cap walk.

I would tend to agree.  I've seen a lot of SBF blocks come apart, split down the middle, oil pump and front main fall off, full cams become 3/4 or 1/2 race cams, etc and things like girdles and those cheesy "braces" that some people install that go across the valley under the intake only serve to keep the pieces together for easier extraction from the vehicle.  As opposed to it falling apart on the engine stand when you remove the pan and intake.   If you want assured block integrity, it's the age for shelling out for a re-engineered aftermarket replacement, or dial the power down.  Even SBF blocks are getting hard to find, that can be machined back into service anyway. 

Said the guy pushing 575+ through a stock D2AE iron Cleveland block.  Just waiting for "that day", when I get to tell the wife "It's time to call Tim Meyer and hand him about $3600".

I agree with this as well.  To me, the girdle likely does very little for dissipating the harmonics from the cap to the block, which would be the primary goal to keep the bottom end together.  I just can't see how the oil pan bolts, even with a gasket on only one side, do much.  I think it would be better to recess bolts into the pan rail, machine nicely and bolt it solid with sealant before the pan.  Basically make a bed plate like a modern diesel

Now that being said, it likely transfers something to the other caps, and like you said, probably keeps the caps from moving a little. I just think it's likely more of a feel good than a significant increase in rigidity.

Now once that thing is bolted solid in many places, and maybe pinned to the caps, different story, but a lot more $$ and machining too
---------------------------------
Ross

- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

BattlestarGalactic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1055
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2020, 09:44:36 AM »
My .02 on the girdle.   I agree, I don't think it does as much as cross bolting.  Seems kinda flimsy overall and unless you pin it to the pan rail and some how pin it to the caps everything will still move around in the bolt holes.  Kinda like Keith says, it will hold the parts together so you can remove the blown up motor from the car.  Oh, I remember those SBF girdles using 10-32 SHCS holding the valley together>>>LOL!!!!

I did my own machining on my old 428 block to install 427 caps using our big G&L horizontal mill at work.  Worked out pretty easily with stock caps as then you only have to fit the bushings individually.  Mine worked well for 20 yrs and is still okay after putting a sleeve in it from last summer.  It's wrapped up waiting on its next use.  If it wasn't 3/4 filled, I put it together for my blower car.

I kinda cringe at the Program caps as you really have to watch your block machining to get the proper fit between the rails.  No fudge work allowed, you have to be dead on.  My thought was to eliminate that was to cut the caps and install spacers like a stock cap.  In this manner, it loosens the machining tolerance on the block, giving us part time machining hacks some leeway.  ;)

I too have seen more power put through 2 bolt caps, but mine only went one season before there was fretting on the mating surfaces, and that is when I installed the cross bolt caps and eliminated that issue for 2 decades of racing that block.

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1098
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: Cross bolting cost?
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2020, 10:07:58 AM »
My block girdle that I use has a recessed nut area so that the oil pan sits flush with the girdle.  I use a thin bead of silicone on the block rail, then the girdle with studs, self locking serrated nuts, then oil pan gasket and oil pan with more self locking serrated nuts.  The girdle is torqued in place by every oil pan stud, then the pan is installed like normal. 1/2" steel plate girdle shaped for stroker clearance.  I use ARP main studs and torque the mains, then add a hardened washer on top of the nut for exact fit for the girdle, and another ARP nut torqued.    Joe-JDC
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 10:11:00 AM by Joe-JDC »
Joe-JDC '70GT-500