New block source

[jayb]

My friend who is getting a billet block done say it will cost him about $12K.  Seems like a lot, based on the price of the other blocks that are available...

[Chrisss31]

Would a billet block be that much stronger than a cast aluminum block or is it just in the interest of weight savings?  I'm surprised no one has written a program to lighten up one of the blocks we already have available.  There must be some places to shave off a few pounds here and there.

[cjshaker]

Would a billet block be that much stronger than a cast aluminum block or is it just in the interest of weight savings?  I'm surprised no one has written a program to lighten up one of the blocks we already have available.  There must be some places to shave off a few pounds here and there.

I don't think a billet block is going to save much weight. The extra strength (and the majority of the advantage) will come from computer modeling to reinforce weak areas. Look at modular blocks and how they are cast. They have strengthening ribs all over the darn things, and they can take some heavy power. That is all done by computer modeling, and that's when they have weight factors as a critical goal. The aftermarket blocks can take huge amounts of power. This is one of the areas where modern technology really shines, in the ability, with good software, to detect stress areas and strengthen them to reduce flex and twist, and all before the first aluminum chip flies. What used to be available only to billion dollar companies like the auto manufacturers, is now available to smaller companies and individuals with some spending money. Of which, I'm not one...lol

As far as saving weight on one of the current aftermarket blocks, all that extra weight in the casting is there for a reason; centered around thicker siamesed bores, thicker decks and main webbing. Areas where you do not want to remove strength. The rest of the blocks are pretty much thinwall castings, just like factory stuff. The only non-critical area that seems thicker in the BBM blocks and the SOG block that I have is around the lifter bores, and that would require some serious work and machining....all to save maybe 5 pounds.

[cammerfe]

Well I read through this thread and I didn’t see a price ( or estimation ) for such a beast, So forgive me if I missed it. My gut tells me it’s one of those “ if you have to ask you can’t afford it “ type deals.

Still, I hope it works out for you, it’s awesome to think about and I hope to see some pics when it does come together.

The outfit that does these seems to mostly do the real mainstream stuff like BBC, SBC and same-o for Ford. They also do some of the really weird stuff (to me) such as the huge diesel stuff that's used for tractor-pulling. The first run of FE blocks (five pieces) will cost between 12K and 15K each. Please keep in mind that these are fully water-jacketed blocks, which means that some parts of the outer skin of the block will need to be welded in place. For those of you who know about him, Chris Razor does the welding. The finished block will weigh between sixty and seventy pounds.

The benefit is that any dimension can be changed and the aluminum billet is forged. This makes for a more uniform molecular-level grain structure in the billet and substantially improves strength. The billets are each a bit shy of a thousand bucks.

KS

[frnkeore]

For those that suggest cast iron blocks, this is the difference.

7075-T651. T651 temper 7075 has an ultimate tensile strength of 570 MPa (83,000 psi) and yield strength of 500 MPa (73,000 psi). It has a failure elongation of 3–9%. These properties can change depending on the form of material used.
Not weldable

2024 T4
Tensile  Yield
  68k      47k
Weldable

6061 T6
Tensile    yield
   45k        40k
Very weldable

The most commonly used aluminum casting alloy is 356. These specs are for the best grade, heat treated:
Alloy       HT         Tensile     Yield         BHN
A356    T6          40k       30k        75
 356         T6          33k         24k          70
Very weldable


The Yield Strength of common gray cast iron is about 30k but, it doesn't yield much, it breaks. That's why they don't list the yield. Note, the elongation.
It does have a vibration dampening property that other materials don't have and why it's also used in machine tools.

Grey cast iron (ASTM A48)    C 3.4, Si 1.8, Mn 0.5
 Yield        Tensile   Elongation   BHN
  --—        50k        0.5        260    
Uses:
Engine cylinder blocks, flywheels, gearbox cases, machine-tool bases
Possible to be welded

It varies a little but, aluminum weighs about .100 per CI, and cast iron, .260 per CI.

The welded join on all aluminums goes down to 16 to 20k tensile strength (that's the annealed strength) and the surrounding  areas, that reach 300F or more.

Aluminum, is to gummy to machine, in the annealed state and has to be HTed before machining. As I stated before, mil specs require roughing and re-heat treating of larger sections. The reason for that, is to stress relieve the parts. That also applies to forgings.

[Chrisss31]

That's very interesting Frank!  I noticed the Kirkham billet was 6061.  I have worked with 7075 it machines much nicer that 6061.  So, what you're saying is everything critical would need to be machined to a tolerance and re-machined again after all the welding was done and the block re-tempered? 

[428 GALAXIE]

How many of you might be interested in a billet FE block? (I live in Metro Detroit and EVERYTHING in way of mechanical stuff is available if you know where to look.)



There is an outfit in a northern suburb that has the capability to take a virgin aluminum billet and carve off everything that isn't an FE block. Within reason you can specify all details.

With hairdryers, and methanol and spray, using some of Jay's components, how much power do you want to make?

KS

Is the landspeed gt getting a FE powerplant instead of boss9?

[WConley]

For those that suggest cast iron blocks, this is the difference...

There's much more to it.  Stiffness is also critical in a high performance engine block.  Aluminum blocks tend to move around a lot, which increases blow-by and friction (from misalignment).  It's harder to seal an aluminum deck against high combustion pressures.  Differential thermal expansion means you have to do different things with your bearing and valvetrain clearances.

Aluminum is great in many applications, but it's not universally better than alloyed cast iron.  The newer CGI cast iron is great stuff for a block.

[Heo]

Wife's car have a full alu four cam V8   the instructions say not to rev it past 2000
before the engine is up to temp so that oilpressure is below pegged meter
don't remember but maybe 3kg/cm to take up tolerances in the engine
And when started not put it in gear
before the increased idle drops after about 30 sec when started cold

[WConley]

Wife's car have a full alu four cam V8   the instructions say not to rev it past 2000
before the engine is up to temp so that oilpressure is below pegged meter
don't remember but maybe 3kg/cm to take up tolerances in the engine
And when started not put it in gear
before the increased idle drops after about 30 sec when started cold

Great to hear from you Heo!

Formula One engines with aluminum blocks can't be started when cold.  They're seized solid due to the tight clearances.  You have to run hot oil from an external tank into the engine until the block expands...

[chilly460]

I understand that OEMs have budgets and technology that may allow them to build better blocks, but the high hp forced induction cars even use aluminum blocks nowadays, are they mitigating the blocks moving around somehow? 

[frnkeore]

That's very interesting Frank!  I noticed the Kirkham billet was 6061.  I have worked with 7075 it machines much nicer that 6061.  So, what you're saying is everything critical would need to be machined to a tolerance and re-machined again after all the welding was done and the block re-tempered?

Basically, yes, but, it's not recommended that 7075 be welded, at all. I would create a boss to bolt what ever needed to be there, rather than consider a weld.

Yes, cast iron is ridged and as I said, has vibration damping quality's. It also expands at 3X the rate of steel and cast iron but, it weighs 2.6 times as much and is 1/2 as strong!

Modern tech has made the aluminum block a stable platform, at least in cast form. Most modern engines are made of aluminum. A good example of high HP capability, is the Modular Ford.

[WConley]

Yeah - dedicated race engines are totally optimized for the block material.  Clearly aluminum can handle big power.  Look at a 500 inch Top Fueler making 11,000 HP.  Formula One engines make crazy power per liter. 

You can manage the thermal and stiffness issues with careful design, and careful operating procedures.  You also know that you have to inspect parts often.  (Fatigue cracking can be a big issue with aluminum.)  Those huge power engines don't live long at all.  A Top Fuel engine turns about 600 revolutions at full power before it has to be torn down.  Formula One engines are done after about 20 hours at race power.

No one material is universally "best" for an engine block.  It all depends on what you want to do, and how long you want to do it.

[cammerfe]

How many of you might be interested in a billet FE block? (I live in Metro Detroit and EVERYTHING in way of mechanical stuff is available if you know where to look.)



There is an outfit in a northern suburb that has the capability to take a virgin aluminum billet and carve off everything that isn't an FE block. Within reason you can specify all details.

With hairdryers, and methanol and spray, using some of Jay's components, how much power do you want to make?

KS

Is the landspeed gt getting a FE powerplant instead of boss9?

I have been planning some variation of this project for years. One of the hangups has been what sort of transmission to use. Any mid-rear-engine car requires a transaxle and there simply isn't one that's strong enough for what I have in mind. It's only in the last few months that I imagined what could be done to 'make-do', and I was going ahead on that basis. But my heart has always been in the maximum use of the FE engine.

Jay's new heads can't be made to flow as much as a maxed-out set of 385-series heads, but I sat down to envision what might be possible...

I am now re-thinking what combination will make the best sense. The latest re-do of the Cobra Daytona is EXTREMELY slippery. And there are a number of transmissions that can be used. And lots of alternative gearsets that can be put in a properly prepared 9" case. So...

We Shall see.

KS

[Dumpling]

I have been planning some variation of this project for years. One of the hangups has been what sort of transmission to use. Any mid-rear-engine car requires a transaxle and there simply isn't one that's strong enough for what I have in mind. It's only in the last few months that I imagined what could be done to 'make-do', and I was going ahead on that basis. But my heart has always been in the maximum use of the FE engine.

KS

I was at a Koenigsegg release party. One of their configurations was a SINGLE SPEED 'transmission'.

What HP level would you be shooting for?