Question for Joe-JDC and any other Pros who care to chime in---

[cammerfe]

I have the sort of inquiring mind that seeks all sorts of arcane data. I read recently that there is a CNC-ported version of the 460A 385 head that flows 560 CFM+ at 28 inches.

Previous explorations had me thinking that the 'Fuel' hemi head used in Top Fuel racing would flow about 500 CFM at 28 inches in NA form..

Is the 560 CFM conceivably accurate? And if it's true, have you any idea as to the potential flow of a Kaase 'B9' head when fully developed? The projected use of the B9 would be in a turbo'd fuel application. But just how good IS the B9?

Any input would be  VERY much appreciated.

KS

[blykins]

Not Joe, but I don't believe the Kaase Boss 9 will approach that, even worked hard.  I think they will top out at about 430-440 cfm. 

If you are looking for something that will approach that, I've used some Profiler canted valve BBF heads (part number 221) that will flow over 550 when tweaked at 1" lift.  Those heads support 2.2 hp/ci on a pulling engine that I did.  They are similar to C460 heads.

[SSdynosaur]

I believe that NHRA outlawed the 385 series for Fuel catagories a few years back. They didn't like the bore spacing in particular. There was a revolution in its infancy beginning "and" John Force was then sponsored by Ford; imagine where that could lead. One of Force's crew chiefs had already begun assembling pieces to make a run at the Gen2 Hemis.

[Joe-JDC]

The A-460 heads can be ported to flow those numbers, and have been for many years.  They will have a 2.400-2.450" intake valve to get there.  As for the Kaase Boss heads, I have not personally flowed them, but have ported regular Boss 429 heads and intakes.  Just did a Boss 429 intake last year for a Kaase stroker with Kaase heads.  Jon says quite openly that his heads as cast are around 410 cfm, which means a CNC'd port would increase the flow probably 15-20% over stock.  The new SR-71 Kaase heads will support 1100+ hp as cast on a 598 Cubic inch BBF using the TFS intake.                https://youtu.be/dIrvPfrnXjM


Joe-JDC

[machoneman]

I believe that NHRA outlawed the 385 series for Fuel catagories a few years back. They didn't like the bore spacing in particular. There was a revolution in its infancy beginning "and" John Force was then sponsored by Ford; imagine where that could lead. One of Force's crew chiefs had already begun assembling pieces to make a run at the Gen2 Hemis.

Yes, but NHRA many years ago, 16 years to be exact, now outlawed ONLY the Ford engines (bore spacing was the bullshit claim ) after Hemi teams bitched that the engine would quickly obsolete the less capable Hemi bore spacing and cylinder head design. All the makers of aftermarket Hemi stuff were up in arms as literally everything from the blower on down would be sidelined as teams would need to but all different Ford sized stuff (heads, intakes, rockers, cranks, blocks, etc.). And yes Force's team and the Austins did do up one engine apiece (don't think they ever ran in competition) but NHRA's fast move killed its introduction.  Btw, no other engine type or series had ever then or even now been outlawed thanks to those silly bastards! https://www.fordforums.com/threads/typical-nhra-bans-ford-boss-429-engine.72097/

Sadly, this was just like all the other boneheaded NHRA moves that have proven to kill the sport. The 1,000ft rule, heavy support for all things Chevrolet in all classes, Buster Couch after retirement clearly stating that the NHRA Board put a heavy thumb on the scales to favor Chevy stuff at all times.

More recently the idiotic idea (as Pro Stock as a class is failing badly) to allow any engine in any body style has lead to a few teams putting Chevy-design engines into late model Mustang bodies! It hasn't worked at all to generate new interest in the class as they not only a.) can't field a full 16 car field at each event they also had to b.) drop even trying to run the class at every National event as they had since the class's inception.  https://www.dragzine.com/features/editorials-opinions/gm-engines-in-a-ford-whats-your-take-on-latest-pro-stock-ruling/

I swear I hope the entire NHRA fails and fails badly! Then, a new racing association with vision, an even-handed approach to all makes and the re-institution of real 1/4 mile racing takes off. 

[Rory428]

Actually, Pat Austins son Drew, has been very competitive racing an Walt Austin built Boss 429 based front engine dragster at the Hot Rod Reunion races in California. There is a strong running Austin Boss 429 Pro Mod team from Washington state as well.

[machoneman]

Actually, Pat Austins son Drew, has been very competitive racing an Walt Austin built Boss 429 based front engine dragster at the Hot Rod Reunion races in California. There is a strong running Austin Boss 429 Pro Mod team from Washington state as well.

Yes but he can't run in the T/F nor F/C classes now can he? Damnd that NHRA!

[mbrunson427]

The heads used on top fuel engines are not optimized. Don't look at them like they are the holy grail.

It's about 5 years ago now that we had a friend working on porting a set for a top fuel team. The biggest name in top fuel racing figured out they were doing this, ran to the NHRA calling it a "safety concern", and the ported head idea got shut down.

Truth is, a ported head would have allowed less blower overdrive, would have been more reliable, and would have allowed smaller budget teams a better chance at competing.

The same guy working on porting those top fuel heads has 460 Ford heads that flow in that 550-600 range.

[cjshaker]

           https://youtu.be/dIrvPfrnXjM

Joe-JDC

Good video, and contains some useful info even for FE people. A couple things I noticed on there that don't follow the conventional thinking on here: Glyptol internal engine coatings on all their engines, apparently. What LOOKED like regular clear window caulk on the intake end seals? Total Seal top rings. And the kicker, more flow does NOT equal more power.

I was surprised that the deeper bowl on the SR71 heads made for better airflow into the combustion chamber. I would think that a deeper bowl would cause a more drastic change of angle, slowing down the charge, or causing the airflow to slam into the backside of the bowl, making for worse airflow into the chamber, but apparently that's not the case. Even the short turn radius was laid back more, which I thought typically hurt flow.

It was cool seeing his raised head Y-block at the beginning. That engine just amazed me at the EMC.

[blykins]

           https://youtu.be/dIrvPfrnXjM

Joe-JDC

Good video, and contains some useful info even for FE people. A couple things I noticed on there that don't follow the conventional thinking on here: Glyptol internal engine coatings on all their engines, apparently. What LOOKED like regular clear window caulk on the intake end seals? Total Seal top rings. And the kicker, more flow does NOT equal more power.

I was surprised that the deeper bowl on the SR71 heads made for better airflow into the combustion chamber. I would think that a deeper bowl would cause a more drastic change of angle, slowing down the charge, or causing the airflow to slam into the backside of the bowl, making for worse airflow into the chamber, but apparently that's not the case. Even the short turn radius was laid back more, which I thought typically hurt flow.

It was cool seeing his raised head Y-block at the beginning. That engine just amazed me at the EMC.

Probably just clear silicone.  I use Dow Corning 732 on everything and it comes out clear like that. 

[Katz427]

I'm no "pro" but I do remember ( and others remember them as well ) the Jordan brothers and their alcohol funny car running a Boss 429. The had a very competitive program. The problem was , they needed some updated new parts. They spent time scrounging Boss parts. There was a story, that they had spent time and money, to develop some new parts, but the NHRA refused to allow it. This was , how many years ago ??!

[wowens]

In 2007 at the SEMA show in Vegas ( if my oldsheimers hasn't kicked in ) Ford had a display nitro engine Force was involved with which was planned for Funny Car. It was based on the 385 platform. I remember it well because the injector hat had 2 blue butterflies with BOSS engraved into them. Was PRETTY !  NHRA shot it down and I think is the reason Ford quit them.

[thatdarncat]

I think the post is probably going a little sideways, so I apologize, and I’m not an expert on the NHRA nitro & alcohol classes, but I do follow it, and have lots of old rule books. There are lots of rule differences between the alcohol and nitro classes too, although it parallels a little. There have been lots of evolutionary rule changes over the years, and I have no idea what went into their decision making, but as horsepower, ET’s and costs have risen they’ve gone to “spec” rules just like a lot of other sanctioning bodies have. The NHRA has had racer committees for rules input for years, although a person could probably construe that as some racers trying to hold back innovation by others and protecting their combo, again it’s way above my level. Major components generally need to be approved and on the “accepted” list, and changes to the parts need to be approved. NHRA went to 4.80” bore spacing limit for the nitro classes in 2002, the rules for the alcohol classes are too varied for me to type it all here, looks like some of the combinations have required 4.84” bore spacing since at least 2005. In the nitro classes you’re limited to just a few “accepted” forged aluminum blocks, no cast blocks, many of the other parts are made in house now days by the big teams because they just can’t take the chance on supply issues by relying on outside vendors, same issue most of the engine builders here face. And they can control the quality. Same with their chassis. The small teams rely on purchasing parts from the big teams. When the Force team got the Ford sponsorship they went to calling their engine combination the Ford 500, and I think they made their own heads in house, a little unique, but still approved by NHRA which set the head configuration type and all the valve angles & valve size specs anyway. By that time all the parameters of the nitro engines were pretty well set, nothing was going to be Boss 429 based. I think the Force team, and the others sponsored by Ford just wanted something they could “call” Ford powered, since it was all custom made anyway. Ford sponsored the Force team through the 2015 season, so Ford leaving didn’t really have anything to do with NHRA not allowing a Ford based engine, that ship had sailed long before. Somewhere I have some pictures of a Force Boss 500 head on the bench, but probably similar to all the other nitro heads. None of those teams seem to care about anyone seeing their ports, it’s all pretty standard and spec’d.

[machoneman]

I think the post is probably going a little sideways, so I apologize, and I’m not an expert on the NHRA nitro & alcohol classes, but I do follow it, and have lots of old rule books. There are lots of rule differences between the alcohol and nitro classes too, although it parallels a little. There have been lots of evolutionary rule changes over the years, and I have no idea what went into their decision making, but as horsepower, ET’s and costs have risen they’ve gone to “spec” rules just like a lot of other sanctioning bodies have. The NHRA has had racer committees for rules input for years, although a person could probably construe that as some racers trying to hold back innovation by others and protecting their combo, again it’s way above my level. Major components generally need to be approved and on the “accepted” list, and changes to the parts need to be approved. NHRA went to 4.80” bore spacing limit for the nitro classes in 2002, the rules for the alcohol classes are too varied for me to type it all here, looks like some of the combinations have required 4.84” bore spacing since at least 2005. In the nitro classes you’re limited to just a few “accepted” forged aluminum blocks, no cast blocks, many of the other parts are made in house now days by the big teams because they just can’t take the chance on supply issues by relying on outside vendors, same issue most of the engine builders here face. And they can control the quality. Same with their chassis. The small teams rely on purchasing parts from the big teams. When the Force team got the Ford sponsorship they went to calling their engine combination the Ford 500, and I think they made their own heads in house, a little unique, but still approved by NHRA which set the head configuration type and all the valve angles & valve size specs anyway. By that time all the parameters of the nitro engines were pretty well set, nothing was going to be Boss 429 based. I think the Force team, and the others sponsored by Ford just wanted something they could “call” Ford powered, since it was all custom made anyway. Ford sponsored the Force team through the 2015 season, so Ford leaving didn’t really have anything to do with NHRA not allowing a Ford based engine, that ship had sailed long before. Somewhere I have some pictures of a Force Boss 500 head on the bench, but probably similar to all the other nitro heads. None of those teams seem to care about anyone seeing their ports, it’s all pretty standard and spec’d.

Sorry Kevin but the facts remain: NHRA specifically banned the larger Ford 385 series bore spaced blocks long ago. Nothing can change that ill-advised move to protect the makers of aftermarket 426 Hemi based smaller bore blocks, heads. etc. In fact, Force did essentially want to tag what was really a "426 Hemi" engine as a "Ford" but that's NOT what I and others here were talking about. 

In my post and with others that posted here, we were specifically talking about a true 385 bore-spaced Ford style engine with Boss heads, not a 426 Hemi engine. Let's get that straight.

My issue with the NHRA boneheads is that they went overboard in protecting the investment fuel racers and makers of 426 aftermarket parts had in said parts by banning the Ford. The T/F racers I knew back then concurred that the NHRA made a calculated move to protect those making, buying and having 426 replica engines and related parts. And your quite wrong in your analysis by interjecting and using the Force phony Hemi example. That's not what I and others here are talking about at all.

And yes, I've also followed T/F and F/C engine parameters since at least 1969. Let's once again get it straight: Ford engines with 385 bore spacing and Boss head designs were specifically banned long ago by the NHRA and lots of links prove this was and is true. So please don't divert away from these facts.

Oh, and one last note: name one other engine design, ever, that the NHRA has totally banned from any form of T/F or F/C (nitro) competiton. There is only one........................................     

https://www.fordforums.com/threads/typical-nhra-bans-ford-boss-429-engine.72097/

[allrightmike]

So, it's OK for the Chevrolet brand to suck all of the oxygen out of the sport but it is not OK for a Ford engine with even a theoretical advantage to compete? Following the money does not seem to make it at all legitimate as it pertains to the sanctioning body's.