Author Topic: C8AX-6250D Cam  (Read 14661 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

e philpott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 920
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2020, 11:57:41 AM »
So a GM L88 cam is similar to Fords D cam ?

GerryP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 561
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2020, 12:29:09 PM »
So a GM L88 cam is similar to Fords D cam ?

You can look up the specs yourself.  But, no, the L88 cam has shorter lift and duration.  Interesting to note that the L88 was available with an automatic transmission.  The "D" cam is kind of in a league of the race cam heroes.

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2020, 12:34:51 PM »
This is what this is all about:

Quote
Mike did a service for the community it ended being something people wanted for what ever reason, mine was cause it was what was used back in the day, when I was a kid, so I bought one.

I do not believe he is looking for "sound"! I believe he is trying to capture history, nothing else. I'm doing something similar with my 306 build. I'm going to break the engine in, with a simi copy of the Le Mans cam. You might call it a updated/modernized version with 251/255 and .595 lift, with ported C6 heads. Before I put the roller cam in it and aluminum heads. WHY? I just want to see what it will do, nothing else. It's not a waist of money, it's a experiment and worth every penny I spend on it, before pulling it and putting it on the shelf.

The "D" is a race cam, it put out 575-600 HP, in a MR 427 at 7000+ rpm, again a race cam, it's not very streetable. I'm 75 and in my day, we street racers didn't care if the engine bucked, we only cared if it would light the tires. We hung out at our favorite place and waited for a challenger to come along. My best friend had a 300 duration, Herbert roller, in a 324 Olds, with a 471 on top, in a '32. I built a 427 LR with the same came and we later put it in the '32.

Quote
So, all of this experience and knowledge on these boards and no one has offered any suggestions or recommendations to help the people who bought these cams for what will help make these cams work.

This is what he's asking for, not reason to discard the cam. Answers like smaller carbs, lower gear and a 4 speed would be things that would help him.
Frank

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3918
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2020, 12:52:42 PM »
So a GM L88 cam is similar to Fords D cam ?

No, an L88 cam is closer to the Crower listed earlier

The "D" is a race cam, it put out 575-600 HP, in a MR 427 at 7000+ rpm, again a race cam, it's not very streetable. I'm 75 and in my day, we street racers didn't care if the engine bucked, we only cared if it would light the tires. We hung out at our favorite place and waited for a challenger to come along. My best friend had a 300 duration, Herbert roller, in a 324 Olds, with a 471 on top, in a '32. I built a 427 LR with the same came and we later put it in the '32.

So, all of this experience and knowledge on these boards and no one has offered any suggestions or recommendations to help the people who bought these cams for what will help make these cams work.

This is what he's asking for, not reason to discard the cam. Answers like smaller carbs, lower gear and a 4 speed would be things that would help him.

People are losing their minds, we absolutely did say what it needs to work, steep gear, light car, and a carb.  BTW Barry just did one at 513 HP, so your 575-600 may not be accurate.  Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't mean it hasn't been said over and over.......ADDITIONALLY, when rewriting the post's history, please realize, the OP changed his mind after he realized how the car would act.  What you are saying about what "Greg wants" doesn't seem to be the case, and that's a good thing

Just to be clear, I will say it on here too, depending on cubes, on the street, 11.0-11.75:1, a carb OR an EFI able to be run on open loop, a 4.56-5.13 gear depending on tire size, a 4 speed or big converter, and a lower end that can handle the RPM, in my opinion, that means steel crank and crossbolt.  Additionally, but not required, heads and intake that make power up there would help too. I'd like to see something better than a 260 cfm med riser if I was building it

Amazingly, the guys who actually ran them say the same things as the guys who regularly pick cams that run hard.  Maybe just trust someone Frank?  Sometimes you can't do what you want to do and have it turn out the way you want, as a toolmaker I am sure you had guys ask for something just because....
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 12:57:38 PM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2020, 01:56:44 PM »
Do the math, and tell us how many HP it takes to get a full size Ford, to 200 MPH. I don't know what is wrong with Barry's engine but, that one should put out around 625-650 HP at 7500. It needs a bigger cam for those high flowing heads. It was only a one year engine but, did win races and it seems, it had at least the HP of a 426 Hemi. That is REAL world HP! Another point for prospective, is in the early, to mid '70's, a 302, SBF & SBC could produce 480 HP in F5000 cars and your saying that a race preped 427 can't put out more than 515 HP?

Greg, changed his mind (at least on this forum) because of all the negative input and I'll bet he will always wonder "what if". Whether good or bad, at least at my age, I don't ever wonder "what if", if I can afford it. I took a second on my home, in '73, just so I would not have to say that, to get into Formula Car racing. It was the best thing I ever did for myself. I spent a lot of money and don't have anything to show for it today but, SATISFACTION!

Your not wasting your money or time if you satisfy what you want to do.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 02:04:28 PM by frnkeore »
Frank

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3918
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2020, 02:15:48 PM »
Do the math, and tell us how many HP it takes to get a full size Ford, to 200 MPH. I don't know what is wrong with Barry's engine but, that one should put out around 625-650 HP at 7500. It needs a bigger cam for those high flowing heads. It was only a one year engine but, did win races and it seems, it had at least the HP of a 426 Hemi. That is REAL world HP! Another point for prospective, is in the early, to mid '70's, a 302, SBF & SBC could produce 480 HP in F5000 cars and your saying that a race preped 427 can't put out more than 515 HP?

Greg, changed his mind (at least on this forum) because of all the negative input and I'll bet he will always wonder "what if". Whether good or bad, at least at my age, I don't ever wonder "what if", if I can afford it. I took a second on my home, in '72, just so I would not have to say that, to get into Formula Car racing. It was the best thing I ever did for myself. I spent a lot of money and don't have anything to show for it today but, SATISFACTION!

Your not wasting your money or time if you satisfy what you want to do.

If speculating, one reason that street racer could have been low is EFI, (ironically what greg wanted to do)  however, another could easily be those numbers were never where you think they were. 

Let's do some math, if you use 650 HP divided by 427 cid, thats 1.52+ hp per cid, that's a serious piece, and not likely driven on the street.  Back into it another way...2.2 hp per cfm intake flow, also a VERY good head, not likely an FE wedge, that would requires a 295 cfm head and more from the intake, not undoable, but not common either, in fact, most street machines and inefficent early heads are likely to be closer to 2.0 hp per cfm.  I promise I am not a hater, like I said, I'd play with one on a big motor, but I think the memories have grown a bit

Additionally, you take it like it's a negative, I'd say sound IS a good reason, as long as you use the car in a way that you are happy with.  Just like a Thumpr cam now.  However, combine it with EFI and a cast crank, not crossbolt, all it will be is sound.  Unfortunately, it won't be great sound with EFI unless you have the ability to tune, it isn't bolt on and let the ECM learn......
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4449
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2020, 02:20:57 PM »
People are losing their minds, we absolutely

You can beat a horse over the head, but you can't beat common sense into it :)
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4801
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2020, 02:23:21 PM »
Do the math, and tell us how many HP it takes to get a full size Ford, to 200 MPH. I don't know what is wrong with Barry's engine but, that one should put out around 625-650 HP at 7500. It needs a bigger cam for those high flowing heads. It was only a one year engine but, did win races and it seems, it had at least the HP of a 426 Hemi. That is REAL world HP! Another point for prospective, is in the early, to mid '70's, a 302, SBF & SBC could produce 480 HP in F5000 cars and your saying that a race preped 427 can't put out more than 515 HP?

Greg, changed his mind (at least on this forum) because of all the negative input and I'll bet he will always wonder "what if". Whether good or bad, at least at my age, I don't ever wonder "what if", if I can afford it. I took a second on my home, in '73, just so I would not have to say that, to get into Formula Car racing. It was the best thing I ever did for myself. I spent a lot of money and don't have anything to show for it today but, SATISFACTION!

Your not wasting your money or time if you satisfy what you want to do.

Bull butter.

If you're telling me that Barry's 427 needs a BIGGER cam for the tunnel port heads, that's all I have to say to you.   If anything at all, HIGH FLOWING HEADS need less camshaft.  I did a 465 inch Tunnel Port with nothing more than properly prepped cylinder heads (read not ported) and the thing peaked at 7000 with a much smaller camshaft than that C8AX cam.....about 20° smaller actually. 

Trust me, this is not the 60's.  The answer to everything is not make it bigger.   Do you know how I eventually got 700 hp out of that 465 TP?  We made the port volume *smaller*.  Cam stayed the same size.  465 cubes, making 700 hp with a little 260° @ .050" camshaft. 

Greg changed his mind because he was not aware of the camshaft specs.  In his own words, "Looks like I will rethink using the D cam. I am finding out what I didn't know about it."

You act like you're insulted that engine technology has changed in 52 years. 

« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 02:35:23 PM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

1967 XR7 GT

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2020, 03:43:35 PM »
Brent, that was not what Frank had said, he was saying that the motor needed a bigger cam referencing the D cam, not a bigger cam than the D cam, and I agree with Frank that Tunnel motor port should of done better than 513 HP, it had 14 to 1 cr with a single 4, but it was mention that initially the EFI setup they were using was having troubles, could of been limiting factor in performance, and I think if they had tried a carburetor they would of seen an hp improvement, not to mention the  2x4 setup would of been better.

But that's not what the owner of that 427 wanted, he's not looking for every last bit of HP on that motor he had the motor refreshed as it was, could he make more HP with a smaller cam maybe, could he go to a 2x4 setup, could he have those tunnel ports made smaller from even more flow, could he, could he, could he or could he (was that you that had that done to a set of tunnel ports for even better flow numbers, I remember reading about that)  Or, does he just want it the way it was back then ?

Can anyone see my point ?

So I want to thank everyone for their help.
Richard

 "Frankly, I'm tired of hearing all the complaints; makes me wonder why I bother hosting this forum."

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4801
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2020, 05:16:15 PM »
I think his exact words were, "It needs a bigger cam for those high flowing heads."  If he means that a higher flowing head needs a bigger cam, he's wrong.  If he meant Barry's engine needed a bigger cam, he's wrong. 

The beauty of it is that it's a free country and you guys are free to do whatever you like.  Y'all have more money than me though to build an engine solely around a sound. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

wayne

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2020, 06:50:52 PM »
I ran one in a 427 todays cams are much better but if you want every one to know your coming to the drive in no cam sounds better.

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1906
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2020, 06:51:40 PM »
I don't really know which thread to put this in - maybe I should start a new one in the dyno results section.  Maybe after I do a video...

The engine I ran last week (before the apocalypse) was not built by me.  It was built sometime in the late 1970s.  We freshened the heads, replacing the old and by now fragile OEM valves and the tired springs.  The car's owner reinstalled them on the original bottom end, along with the single plane 4150 intake and a Holley Terminator bolt on EFI.  The lower end has vintage everything including those pop up pistons and dykes rings.  This is probably as close to a real deal back in the day tunnel port as we are ever likely to get.  I wanted to try a carb on it, but we ran out of time.  I think a Dominator might have picked it up by 20 or so - - but 600+ was never gonna happen - ever.  I have run an original high riser 2x4 with a "B" cam and it made 487 HP, and an original medium riser 2x4 with a Comp 282S that made 442HP - - so this one fits the working range pretty well in comparison to those.  I am sorry to those that think it should make a bunch more - but it don't.

The car this came from - and is going back into - is something of a Detroit street racing icon.  Nic Zuk's "Midnight Express" Maverick was a 10 second street piece back when 10s were considered bad ass fast on the street of the Motor City.  As such, the car was the focus of an article by Gray Baskerville in a 1979 issue of Hot Rod magazine.  Nic recently sold the car, and is involved in it's resurrection.  The new owner, the old owner, friends of each, and a couple Ford dyno techs were all on site during the running of this one.  We were approaching the legal limit for old people grouped together and social distancing was not possible - nor desired with all the high fives and fist bumps after each pull.  At one point, when the engine ran past 7000 RPM one of the guys said he heard angels singing....  :)

I will attach some pics for viewing, and will get video up later on as time allows.
Nic Zuk is the guy with the glasses...
See if anybody can recognize the interesting water pump on this one....












Nightmist66

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1209
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2020, 07:10:03 PM »
At one point, when the engine ran past 7000 RPM one of the guys said he heard angels singing....  :)


I hear that's one of the side effects of running this cam.  ;D
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

Katz427

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2020, 07:39:25 PM »
I guess I'll add to the discussion a bit of history as I remember it. A local driver had a 427 tunnel port he ran in the early 70's , short tracks 1/2 mile or less. That engine with a Reed cam and an early holley 4500 and 12.3 to 1 TRW's  would put out about 530-540 hp. ( No fancy computer controlled Dyno) It was geared for 7000 rpm on the straight and was a competitive car. At that time Holman Moody was claiming  around 580 hp for a speedway, tunnel port cammed for Daytona or Charlotte. What cam? I have no idea. Valve springs were a problem, and getting too aggressive meant the valve springs would not last more than 250- 300 laps on the long tracks. The engine builder at that time had his own shop, but like most Ford racers had a connection or two at HM.  Just adds a couple more data points

SSdynosaur

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2020, 08:10:12 PM »
LeMans pump. At first glance I thought Dove but realized the later-design shaft support ribs were missing.

Question; were the TP rocker shafts equipped with any manner of end supports?

I'll go on record as one of the NHRA S/S racers that tried the "D" cam in a legal MR427, 2x4 TW manifold and was unable to even match the performance of the period Crane Z300-8 in the same setup. I posted my experience on the old FE Forum and was seriously flamed for the heresy of posting a negative review of a historically revered factory effort.