Author Topic: C8AX-6250D Cam  (Read 14756 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

1967 XR7 GT

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
    • View Profile
C8AX-6250D Cam
« on: March 16, 2020, 03:28:31 PM »
All you negative commenting people kill me. Where were all your fine comments when Mike was going to thru the trouble of having these cams ground ??? I am actually kinda disappointed in whats gone on.

Mike did a service for the community it ended being something people wanted for what ever reason, mine was cause it was what was used back in the day, when I was a kid, so I bought one.

So, all of this experience and knowledge on these boards and no one has offered any suggestions or recommendations to help the people who bought these cams for what will help make these cams work.

I have a little hobby engine building back ground, nothing like the big name people here on the Boards, but enough.

So I'll start:
For reference- there was posted recently about an Old School 427 Tunnel Port motor stock bore & stock stroke was just freshened up, and dynoed @ 513 hp.

I am building a 468 4.125 x 4.250, with Blairs Street Pro Ports, with a J Sidewinder Ported & Flowed by JDC with each port flowing over 385 cfm averaged out to 387.95 cfm.

The D cam is just a hair larger than the came I was going to run, with identical opening & closing exhaust specs and it has 9 deg more of int duration and about .015" more lift.

Are there better Heads & Manifolds? SURE Are there better Cams? SURE  But  the question is ? Will this cam work in this engine combo,  I think it will work pretty darn good, and be fun.

 

Richard

 "Frankly, I'm tired of hearing all the complaints; makes me wonder why I bother hosting this forum."

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2020, 04:08:48 PM »
I don't think it's any of our jobs to validate something someone is trying to sell, in fact, if anyone did, it would have people far more upset than a cam recommendation (or warning) would

However, although your 9 degrees difference in duration is very significant and doesn't make it the same as another cam with some valve events the same, plus, don't use your engine to justify applicability to someone else's.  You have 35-40 more cubes, heads that will benefit from overlap, and I don't hear you trying to run EFI.  Every combo is different, and even then, yours likely needs a strong bottom end to support the deep breathing top end you chose. 

I completely stand by what everyone involved was warning, and since the OP made a decision to not use it, his car will be more enjoyable AND quicker.  We made very specific points, 4.88-5.13 gear, cross-bolted, steel crank, even better 427 based stroker with a big old deep breathing carb, it starts getting closer.  There haven't been any secrets on what that cam is for
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4812
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2020, 04:37:37 PM »
I didn't say anything because Mike listed what he intended the cams to be used for:  restorations and F.A.S.T engines. 

I should have said something, because I can guarantee that there aren't 20-25 of those restorations and F.A.S.T engines being built right now.  Unfortunately, not a lot of guys understand cams and can get bit pretty quickly. 

To your point, your engine build would be more suited for something like this, but I will also say that 9 degrees of duration is a bunch, and a ton of overlap is worse than less.  I have actually made guys go faster at the strip by grinding them cams with less overlap. 

I just freshened up a 556 ci pulling truck engine that made 1163 hp @ 8500 rpm.  Now granted, those Profiler heads flowed 550cfm, but I will tell you that the camshaft needed to pull 8500-9000 rpm with that combination had about 20° less overlap than the C8AX cam.   

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

FElony

  • Guest
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2020, 05:54:25 PM »
Somebody's making the D cam? I grovel like a dog and spit on my own grave for missing this, evidently while I was on the chain gang. Linky?

1964Fastback

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
1964 Galaxie 500 2 dr Fastback, 390, 4 speed, Indianapolis Indiana

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2020, 07:02:56 PM »
You can get any cam you like ground, by just giving the cam grinder your spec.

I had Howards do a 302 cam for me. The cost is only $10 more than a standard cam and you can get it in about 1 week.

Call Ben Herheim at Howards and he'll fix you up as well as help you understand what you your getting.

You can modernize it too, with more modern ramps and higher lift, such as a tight lash profile.

As for streetability, the C3AZ-6250-K and C4AE-6250-B, both 324 duration cams, where used on the street, everywhere, at least in CA.

WHY?  Because we WANT to, because we are old and want what we didn't have or what we used to have. We don't really care about the last HP available and we aren't going to race, professionally. We just want it!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 02:24:16 AM by frnkeore »
Frank

FElony

  • Guest
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2020, 07:20:01 PM »
https://www.fordfe.com/c8ax-6250-d-reissue-camshafts-t164022.html

Pat

Thanks, Pat. So, somewhere between the "N54" thread and this one there was bad-mouthing about this endeavor? Why? It seemed that Mike sold all the cams, no? I'm with Frank's attitude. I don't care about every last horsepower, especially when it comes to "that" sound and cantankerous behavior. Seems like the people here are getting old and crotchety. They don't want to hear about anything old. They don't want to hear about anything new. They just want to have a hot toddy every night so they can scratch their balls and fall asleep on the overstuffed couch with the crocheted doilies.

All these cams gone? Some still for sale? I want one so I can soak it in lye, let it rust shitless, and slice up the rest of youse relics like I used to when I belonged to the ThunderSnakes. Rusty cam. Tetanus and lockjaw guaranteed.

thatdarncat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1865
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2020, 07:28:43 PM »
https://www.fordfe.com/c8ax-6250-d-reissue-camshafts-t164022.html

Pat

Thanks, Pat. So, somewhere between the "N54" thread and this one there was bad-mouthing about this endeavor? Why? It seemed that Mike sold all the cams, no? I'm with Frank's attitude. I don't care about every last horsepower, especially when it comes to "that" sound and cantankerous behavior. Seems like the people here are getting old and crotchety. They don't want to hear about anything old. They don't want to hear about anything new. They just want to have a hot toddy every night so they can scratch their balls and fall asleep on the overstuffed couch with the crocheted doilies.

All these cams gone? Some still for sale? I want one so I can soak it in lye, let it rust shitless, and slice up the rest of youse relics like I used to when I belonged to the ThunderSnakes. Rusty cam. Tetanus and lockjaw guaranteed.

I’m guessing it pertains to this thread. And not bad mouthing the endeavor of making the cams, but the discussion of whether it’s a good choice for the application in the thread.

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=8501.0
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

FElony

  • Guest
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2020, 07:59:30 PM »
Thanks, Kevin. I think I'm all caught up on the subject now. For some reason, I thought Holman-Moody was still offering this grind. Thilly me.

475fetoploader

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2020, 10:50:37 PM »
I'm not sure if anyone's commentary was from malice. I may be naive in saying this, I'd at least like to believe folks
were trying to help, based on their experience with producing powerplants utilizing current procedures equipment and products.  I love old stuff. That's why I am building an F.E. to begin with.  I have a Lunati flat tappet on my shelf I would love to use, but realistically, it will probably go flat and make me cry.  I am struggling between EFI and 2 Holley 4 barrels, I know which one would run smoother, and I know which one I would personally think is the coolest.  I hope we can appreciate this for what it is, a handful of Dudes who all want eachother to have the best running pavement pounder they can possibly build. 
1967  Fairlane Tunnel Wedge on Proports.
1975 4x4 461 f.e. 4speed Dual Quads on 38’s
Love many, Trust few. Always paddle your own canoe.

FElony

  • Guest
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2020, 11:30:53 PM »
"I hope we can appreciate this for what it is, a handful of Dudes who all want eachother to have the best running pavement pounder they can possibly build."

Yep, that's why the Progression Distributor thread hit a cement abutment. All those Dudes couldn't WAIT to entertain possibilities. God forbid I mention the company that is now making quality torque plates at a price substantially lower than BHJ. I'd be tar-and-feathered. Again. Still pluckin' around from the last time.

1967 XR7 GT

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2020, 01:44:25 AM »
Warnings can only be helpful before someone makes a mistake, kinda of rubs it in after they already spent the money.

The cam is fairly nice size for a flat tappet, in a 390 it would be kinda big, as motor size increases, 427,428, 454, 468, 482,and so on, the cam gets smaller. Would it run in a 390, yes but it would be lacking torque on the bottom end. Would I run it in a 390 if that was all I had, hell yes.

I may throw the Crower cam in my 390 and run it till the 468 is done. Eng spec's I posted earlier are backwards it's 4.250" bore x 4.125 Forged Scat crank, for the 468 with Crower rods. I'll be running a 3,000 stall and 3:50 gears on the street. If your one of 25 who bought this cam, the bigger the motor the better off you'll be, but if you don't, run it anyways or put it on the shelf and shelf race it... 8)


Here are the cam cards for both cams. And both cams have identical 99 deg's of overlap. The Crower has 4' advanced ground in on 108 LSA and the D cam has 5' of advance ground in on 107 LSA. And the D cam has .015" smaller base circle than the Crower cam. And the D cams 614" lift is calculated from the Hydraulic 1.73 ratio x .355 = 614 - .025 = .589" lift, with Solid rockers: .355 x 1.76 = .6248' - .025 lash = .5998" rounded to .600" lift. And the exh timing are identical on both cams, both open @ 68 and closes @ 24





 
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 02:02:52 AM by 1967 XR7 GT »
Richard

 "Frankly, I'm tired of hearing all the complaints; makes me wonder why I bother hosting this forum."

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4812
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2020, 05:12:31 AM »
Warnings can only be helpful before someone makes a mistake, kinda of rubs it in after they already spent the money.

The cam is fairly nice size for a flat tappet, in a 390 it would be kinda big, as motor size increases, 427,428, 454, 468, 482,and so on, the cam gets smaller. Would it run in a 390, yes but it would be lacking torque on the bottom end. Would I run it in a 390 if that was all I had, hell yes.

I may throw the Crower cam in my 390 and run it till the 468 is done. Eng spec's I posted earlier are backwards it's 4.250" bore x 4.125 Forged Scat crank, for the 468 with Crower rods. I'll be running a 3,000 stall and 3:50 gears on the street. If your one of 25 who bought this cam, the bigger the motor the better off you'll be, but if you don't, run it anyways or put it on the shelf and shelf race it... 8)


Here are the cam cards for both cams. And both cams have identical 99 deg's of overlap. The Crower has 4' advanced ground in on 108 LSA and the D cam has 5' of advance ground in on 107 LSA. And the D cam has .015" smaller base circle than the Crower cam. And the D cams 614" lift is calculated from the Hydraulic 1.73 ratio x .355 = 614 - .025 = .589" lift, with Solid rockers: .355 x 1.76 = .6248' - .025 lash = .5998" rounded to .600" lift. And the exh timing are identical on both cams, both open @ 68 and closes @ 24




Well, we're kinda in bad shape if we do warn, and bad shape if we don't.   I kinda felt bad even asking Greg about running it in the other thread.  But it would have been a mistake and I hated to see him make it. 

The thread on the other forum clearly had a description of the intent of making those camshafts, as well as a clear description of the specs.   If someone bought a camshaft that has 273° of duration at .050" lift, then I have to assume that they bought it while seeing those specs. 

That Crower camshaft would be closer, but to be honest, I don't think either one of them are anywhere close to what you need for something going down the road with a 3.50 gear. 

I understand that a lot of guys want sound from a camshaft.  For crying out loud, that's why Comp went and made the Thumpr line of camshafts.   You wouldn't believe the number of guys who call me wanting a custom and they always throw in the line at the end, "Will this have a little bit of lope to it?"  I get it.  I like big cams as much as the next guy, and if you'll notice, all the engines I build for myself are pretty high stringers.   

I will say this though, I built the 390 dyno mule, which peaked at 7000 and pulled to 7500 with a hydraulic roller.  It had 90° of overlap and the next iteration camshaft that I had for it before I sold it to Shady, was something with less overlap.   Not because I didn't like the sound, but because I thought it would make more power with less.  That's pretty common. 

So, at the end of all of this, I think you're making a mistake too, Richard.  I think both cams are incorrect for your application.  If you're in it just for the sound, that's all fine and dandy as long as you say that up front.  However, if you're building something to run, and I'd say you are with Blair's heads and a well-ported intake, I certainly would either reach for another cam, or throw a deep gear in that car.  That's a very mismatched combo.  With a 3.50 gear and a heavy car, I'd be somewhere around the high 230's/low 240's, for .050" duration.  Remember, that there's a byproduct to all of that overlap:  inefficiency at low rpm.  I get it, that's what higher stall torque converters are for, but a 3000 rpm stall isn't a lot for something like this.   

Let me also make the general point that it probably won't be the case with those Pro Port heads, but you can't keep throwing duration at an engine, expecting it to make more and more horsepower.  There's a very distinct line, where the power starts falling off.   When that happens, you end up with an engine with an extremely small powerband, with no guts down low, and no butt up high. 





« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 05:15:43 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2020, 06:29:19 AM »
Richard, I am with Brent, you basically have an L88 cam there (more or less).  To be honest, yours is closer FOR YOU, but even that Crower would be a mess in the EFI 428 Edelbrock head engine that started this discussion.  Comparing two cams that are too big just shows two cams are too big and sorta match

It is a tough spot, do you say your opinion or let the guy buy pushrods, matching springs, shim rocker stands, shape pushrod holes, break the cam in, hopefully successfully, etc, and then have him "potentially" have to do it again?   You may call it inappropriate, and honestly, nobody is saying it's good news, but not the first time someone bought something that didn't match.  "Don't throw good money after bad" as they say

I'll arm wrestle cam choices if you want, but I have nothing against anyone, and no matter how much someone wants it, I just can't agree that it's a good match for an EFI, 433-ish CID machine. 

Remember, that was the application....not yours.  If you go back and read my post that said "rock on"... in a different application, I'd play with it.  In fact, I'd love to try the D cam in a carbed 482 or bigger, although I'd likely not run 12+:1, I'd be at a max of 11.00-11.25 or so depending on where I degreed it.  That cam at 102 ICL doesn't need that much compression in an engine that can handle it

To me, it's not at all about old school/new school for this one, it's about too big and too radical for the application that Greg initially discussed. 


---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: C8AX-6250D Cam
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2020, 11:20:38 AM »
I raced the D camshaft in my 452 CI MR FE for several years with tunnel wedge and 4500 stall converter.  No way would I run it on the street.  It definitely has its own sound, and it was a good cam for its time.  I would not even consider it now for another build for a serious bracket or race car.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500