BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build

[e philpott]

Jay's Light and Strong Block ? sounds good lol

[machoneman]

When I start to manufacture my FE Power aluminum block, it will be reasonably priced.  Couple years away on that, though...

When will there be a thread on what to name it? Just asking because I want to make sure I'm on vacation that week.

Now THAT'S funny!

Hey, somebody asked where FElony is? I know.....

He's at the library figuring out a 100 names for Jay's new block!

LOL

[machoneman]

Jack of Dart fame and Jason of Brodix both say iron=aluminum these days and why that is true. Note too what Dart says about a back-to-back test. Perhaps that's why Jay hasn't seen any difference: all his FE blocks are modern creations and not 30-40 year old versions of essentially old FE cast iron blocks.

"Aluminum Blocks
Jack McInnis: "The perception that aluminum blocks lose power through decreased ring seal, as compared to iron blocks, is largely based on early aluminum blocks, which lacked the integrity we can achieve today. Aluminum blocks might have sacrificed power many years ago, but that's not the case anymore. A properly engineered modern aluminum block will make the same power as an iron block. We were recently involved in a direct comparison test with a big-block dragster engine making in excess of 1,100 hp. The engine was assembled and dyno tested with an iron Dart block, then disassembled and rebuilt using an aluminum Dart block. At the end of the day, the power figures were nominally identical for the iron and aluminum blocks."

Jason Neugent: "In the early days of manufacturing aftermarket aluminum blocks, the material that was used did indeed move around a lot under heavy abuse. This caused the cylinder sleeves to move, sink, or go out of round. The consequence was that this deflection would cause water leaks and poor ring seal, which are prime ingredients for poor reliability and power loss. Today we have solved these problems with the use of our virgin A-356 aluminum recipe, tighter tolerances, and more rugged sleeve materials. In independent testing, Brodix has witnessed our own aluminum blocks seal as well as a quality cast iron block.""

That's all fine and good except for the fact that we are seeing horsepower differences *now*, not years ago.   I also wouldn't say that new aluminum blocks are copies of 40 year old factory pieces.  The 40 year old factory pieces don't have lifter valley ribbing, etc, etc.   I know that Pond also uses a 356 alloy. 

So what's "nominal" at 1100??  25 hp?  50?

Since we're offering up quotes, here's one from Darin Morgan from a few years ago on Speedtalk:

"We see the EXACT same thing. The Billet blocks are the only aluminum block I have seen that makes the same power as a cast iron block. Aluminum blocks take longer "season" and stop moving around as well. The second or third rebuild always nets anouther twenty HP. Also, as the aluminum block engines get hotter on the dyno the crank case pressure rises dramatically and the power goes south in a hurry! They just expand and move around so much its impossible to maintain any semblance of stability."  Im assuming reher Morrison has some experience with aftermarket block offerings.

A lot of guys always point to the OEM on how well aluminum blocks work, but I will say that the OEM spends millions upon millions of dollars on R&D for one particular engine.  They will also give up a few ponies in order to recoup some much needed fuel economy.

The thing that bites my booty is that guys are always eager to spend so much money on aluminum pieces.  A few years back on Club Cobra, I asked the general population why they were willing to pay so much for them.  The majority vote was for "bling" purposes.  All I can say is that there's a lot of guys out there with money to blow, if they're willing to spend an extra $4000 to just say "I have an aluminum block" or to justify that they need 100 lbs taken off the front of the car. 

I had 3 issues in a row with some aluminum FE blocks.  Two of them cost me lost time and one cost me a nice little chunk of money.  I decided after that, that the other builders could take all the all-aluminum FE orders.

Good one Brent! I had also seen that quote by Morgan but could not find it earlier today.

So...........this means Jay has to try it on his dyno, right? 

[gt350hr]

   I think the "issue" is not "all" aluminum blocks are equal. Dart and Brodix can claim all they want. A Dart or Brodix BBC is not a Pond , Shelby , or BBM FE. The two blocks are vastly different and from 5 different manufacturers. When we have "hands on" experience from well respected builders regarding the FE block specifically , we should take notice of that fact and not compare it to other aluminum blocks.
       In my day job , I deal with many builders that use aluminum blocks and MANY complain about ring seal on them. Chevy , Ford , small block , big block , Brodix , Dart , Ford , C and C , no difference. When I made my suggestion on the Pond aluminum block it was because of use of  the Pond aluminum head , not because it would make the same power as an iron block.
   Randy

[CaptCobrajet]

I can say with absolute certainty that an iron BBM block is the strongest FE block that has been produced to date. Not knocking anyone else's effort, that is just a fact.  I have had over 100 BBM blocks pass through here.  Two blocks have had MINOR issues that were easily corrected.  One block had a major issue, and BBM replaced the block, no hassle. Really good percentage of success in my opinion, and the man rectified the situation on the one with a major issue.

I can say with absolute certainty that the Shelby designed aluminum block was engineered and intended to be produced only as an aluminum block.  It is the best aluminum block, hands down, but you are going to pay for it.

I can say with absolute certainty that with the same exact engine at the 900-ish hp level, there is 30 hp difference between an iron BBM block and a Shelby aluminum block with neither having a vacuum pump.  The iron block being superior.  I think a Shelby with a vacuum pump is just about even with an iron BBM with only pan-evacs.  A vacuum pump makes any of them better.  It makes more difference on an aluminum block.

I have repaired several Pond aluminum blocks with high horsepower and compression that have experienced main bearing issues. They need a step above the threads at the parting line, and they need a deeper rooted main stud.  It cannot be made as strong as the Shelby as it is currently being cast.  I will say however, that the cylinders and head fastener design in the Pond blocks are at least as good as the Shelby.  I have seen the Pond cylinders come back after thousands of miles and hard running, and the cylinders are pretty good, and they hone very well.....may stay at home a little better than a Shelby, but the main web situation is notable.  The mains have to survive for the engine to survive......

The BBM aluminum block has better main web structure than the Pond.  The ones I have seen could benefit from using longer studs.  I think that is probably going to happen at some point.

I believe that an early centeroiler might be a touch better on ring seal than an aluminum Shelby, but I think the Shelby mains are stronger than OE iron.

I think an OE side oiler is tit for tat with a Shelby aluminum in terms of ring seal, but as with the centeroiler, the bottom end will not stand the power that a Shelby will.

All of the above is based on what I have seen and what I have used.  Just my observations and opinions......

[Dumpling]

Has anyone ever experimented with more exotic materials for blocks? For F1 maybe? Magnesium? Titanium? Carbon fiber?

Magnesium banned in F1 for any use for decades as one car went up and melted a hole in the track. Forget if it was a Honda.

Yeah, just found the link and it was the Honda.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wy355r8/

Not a magnesium ENGINE. The Honda had a magnesium body and 58 laps worth of fuel onboard when it burned

With liners for cylinders and whatever, why not a carbon fiber block?  Other than cost, why not titanium (reason why I mentioned F1)?

I should have answered differently. Yes, the Honda was mag bodied but after the fire, F.I.A. banned any use of magnesium, block included. Today, decades later, some rules changes did allow limited use of magnesium sheet but no engine nor transaxle 
nor suspension parts. Funny though, at that time carbon fiber came into being and due to stiffness, I'm told,it's a far better choice.. which is why all F1 cars use it instead. Btw, my rules book is old or else I'd post some fascinating passages here.

Ford GT40 used a transaxle with a magnesium case to reduce weight.

[machoneman]

Has anyone ever experimented with more exotic materials for blocks? For F1 maybe? Magnesium? Titanium? Carbon fiber?

Magnesium banned in F1 for any use for decades as one car went up and melted a hole in the track. Forget if it was a Honda.

Yeah, just found the link and it was the Honda.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wy355r8/

Not a magnesium ENGINE. The Honda had a magnesium body and 58 laps worth of fuel onboard when it burned

With liners for cylinders and whatever, why not a carbon fiber block?  Other than cost, why not titanium (reason why I mentioned F1)?

I should have answered differently. Yes, the Honda was mag bodied but after the fire, F.I.A. banned any use of magnesium, block included. Today, decades later, some rules changes did allow limited use of magnesium sheet but no engine nor transaxle 
nor suspension parts. Funny though, at that time carbon fiber came into being and due to stiffness, I'm told,it's a far better choice.. which is why all F1 cars use it instead. Btw, my rules book is old or else I'd post some fascinating passages here.

Ford GT40 used a transaxle with a magnesium case to reduce weight.

True, but a GT-40 ain't quite an F1 car as I noted.

F.I.A. controlled (at the time at least) both distance racing (Sebring, LeMans, et al) but banned magnesium at the request of the F1 officials. Not sure it's still banned these days.

[Heo]

If you want to see something funny make i fire and throw a
VW trans on the fire

[gt350hr]

    Ford cast a handful of magnesium "494" ( 429-460 style) mag blocks . P&S foundry in Ohio did some BBC's and Mickey Thompson did some SBC's those ware the only American V8's  "I" know of done in mag. Dyno Don ( rip) had one of the  P&S mag BBC's and at 557ci it made around 900 hp when a 500ci legal Pro Stock engine was making 1200. But it was LIGHT LOL Ring seal was non existent as the motor warmed up.
    Mag is a terrible alloy for a high horsepower block.

[preaction]

Catches on fire too.

[cammerfe]

Ford GT40 used a transaxle with a magnesium case to reduce weight.
[/quote]

I'm not sure which iteration of the Ford GT you're referencing, but the one usually, properly labeled as a "GT40" was the original from back in the '60s. The transaxles for the FE-powered cars were produced at T&C Livonia, and when the program was done there was a storage shelf of them in a 'crib' just across the aisle from the Quality Control Lab. I knew the Executive engineer for the plant and had several discussions with him regarding the stored items. They called on whoever was handy as they were making the interior parts and I was detailed to follow some forged gear blanks through the hobbing operation as they were being created. The blanks came, I believe, from Canton Forge.

The cases were an amalgamation of an ordinary four-speed and a 9" centersection with an enbloc bell-housing on the front end. They were assuredly aluminum.

KS

[machoneman]

Dr. Craft (the NASCAR race car restorer) posted his thoughts only a few days ago on the old FE Forum with two pics of what does look an awful lot like a magnesium cased GT-40 transaxle. Can't seem to copy over here the pics however, just his text (below). Don't know if these ever made it into the actual race cars however just like maybe the one-off mag Boss 429 blocks (Can-Am) or other extremely rare parts. 

Anyway, here's the link showing (a few pages in) the disassembled magnesium-looking case in the background and two round aluminum bearing retainers, clearly shiny aluminum versus that unique magnesium look to the case in the background. 

https://www.fordfe.com/viewtopic.php?p=1084069#p1084069

8:28 AM - 2 days ago#48
The early transmission problems  were resolved by taking the bullet proof internals components of a Ford T&C four speed and repackaging them in a Magnesium transaxle housing.

[gt350hr]

   The MKIV transaxles I saw at H&M Charlotte were indeed mag. Ten stacked like cord wood. There were two automatic tranaxles as well but they were aluminum for sure. That was 1977.
   Randy