Author Topic: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build  (Read 11718 times)

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Dumpling

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2019, 01:22:40 PM »
Has anyone ever experimented with more exotic materials for blocks? For F1 maybe? Magnesium? Titanium? Carbon fiber?

blykins

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2019, 01:28:44 PM »
Several manufacturers do CGI.  However, it's hard enough for small-quantity manufacturers to get anything done with any amount of QC and at a reasonable price. 

Dart does some CGI SBF blocks but they also move a lot more blocks than Pond or BBM.
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machoneman

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2019, 03:19:46 PM »
Has anyone ever experimented with more exotic materials for blocks? For F1 maybe? Magnesium? Titanium? Carbon fiber?

Magnesium banned in F1 for any use for decades as one car went up and melted a hole in the track. Forget if it was a Honda.

Yeah, just found the link and it was the Honda.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wy355r8/
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 03:24:28 PM by machoneman »
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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2019, 03:28:48 PM »
   Pond block for aluminum.  BBM is OK for iron but so is the Pond iron block.
  Brent's points about the iron block being more powerful are all valid . The only advantage ( besides the wow factor) to the aluminum block is that "nose weight" which is oh so critical when cornering is a must. Your Horsepower goal can be reached with either block material.
  Randy

I think for $2500, I could find other places to save/relocate weight.....LOL

This is on the money.   You can get aluminum radiators, aluminum intakes, aluminum water pumps, forged (not cast) aluminum wheels, aluminum heads.  You could get fiberglass body parts.  You can take the power steering and power brakes off.....You can save a lot of weight and still get the advantages of an iron block.

JMO,

paulie

mbrunson427

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2019, 06:01:51 PM »
If it were my money and I was going to build something of this caliber....I'd pay up for the Shelby aluminum block. They will sell you a block with all SOHC oil modifications already made. They sell it in a "big bore" model that'll handle 4.375" bore I believe, so you can make it a square 4.375"x4.375". They also avoid drilling the lifter bores (not needed for SOHC) so the valley is all solid. If you want to justify it, it's probably a 5-8% upgrade cost when considering the price of the whole engine. That's how my girlfriend does math when she's shopping or planning a vacation anyhow.
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Dumpling

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2019, 06:17:45 PM »
Has anyone ever experimented with more exotic materials for blocks? For F1 maybe? Magnesium? Titanium? Carbon fiber?

Magnesium banned in F1 for any use for decades as one car went up and melted a hole in the track. Forget if it was a Honda.

Yeah, just found the link and it was the Honda.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wy355r8/

Not a magnesium ENGINE. The Honda had a magnesium body and 58 laps worth of fuel onboard when it burned

With liners for cylinders and whatever, why not a carbon fiber block?  Other than cost, why not titanium (reason why I mentioned F1)?

jayb

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2019, 06:33:07 PM »
I have five aluminum FE blocks, four Shelby and one Pond.  The Shelby blocks are far superior in my opinion.  I would not trust a Pond aluminum block past about 700 HP.  I had an 840 HP SOHC with my Pond aluminum block and the block couldn't take the power/RPM; main bearing bores distorted, spun the #2 main, lost oil to two rods and blew the motor going down the track.  My Shelby blocks on the other hand have been trouble free, and are much, much beefier around the main web than the Pond block.  My naturally aspirated Shelby block SOHC makes just over 1000 HP, and I've made just over 1200 HP with supercharged FE on another Shelby block.  No concerns with that one. 

The problem with the Pond block is that it uses the same casting patterns as the cast iron block.  The area around the main bearing bores is strong enough in iron, but not in aluminum.  The Pond aluminum block is fine up to 700 HP, and I've used mine there with no issues, but one thing that I did notice is that even at those power levels, every time the block was torn down to be freshened there was evidence of cap walk.  And its not that cap, because the Pond caps are very beefy.  Its the block itself.

Here are a couple pictures illustrating this issue, Pond block first.  By the way, this block is now junk after tossing two rods after the main spun, so it was sitting outside for a while, hence the rust:






Any doubt as to which is stronger?

Also, I strongly disagree with the other comments in this thread regarding aluminum blocks.  In my opinion, aluminum blocks are far superior to iron blocks for several reasons.  From a weight perspective, a bare Shelby block weighs about 130 pounds, whereas a BBM cast iron block weighs about 270 pounds.  That is a big difference that will affect acceleration, braking, traction, and cornering.  Further, I have never seen definite proof that a cast iron block makes more power than an aluminum block.  Everybody says this, and maybe it's true, but I have never seen a definitive back to back test.  Someday I'm going to do one myself.  Being able to replace a sleeve in an aluminum block, in case of damage, is a big advantage, and aluminum blocks are much easier to repair than a cast iron block.  I had the pin end of a rod give up on my big SOHC with the Shelby block back in 2013, and the rod came through the block, but despite extensive damage the block was able to be repaired and went back to making 1000+ HP the next year.  But the big advantage is weight savings.

Also, any comments regarding checking an aluminum block when you get it also applies to any aftermarket cast iron blocks.  BBM cast iron blocks have had porosity and leak issues, so have Sideoiler garage blocks from what I've been told.  Any aftermarket block needs to be checked, and all should be subject to the same basic machining operations.  My Shelby blocks did not require any more machining than an aftermarket iron block; just a power hone to fit the pistons and an align hone of the mains.

If you have a horsepower target, you can reach it with either a cast iron block or an aluminum block.  Why not take advantage of the aluminum block's light weight?  Seems like a no brainer to me, except for the cost factor, and as mentioned if you are going to build an SOHC, what's the difference?  Its going to cost a lot no matter what.

I don't know anything about the BBM aluminum block, but I would wonder if it is a dedicated aluminum design (like the Shelby block), or an aluminum block that is cast with the cast iron patterns (like the Pond block).  If it is not a dedicated aluminum design, I would steer clear of it.

One other thing about Shelby blocks, is that I have heard for a while they went to an aluminum main cap, rather than steel.  That was a bad idea, and would make me steer clear of them also.  Now they are supposed to be back to the steel caps, but if you call Shelby for a block make sure to ask about that.

My advice - get a Shelby block. 

« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 07:17:58 AM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

blykins

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2019, 06:48:47 PM »
I’ve had this discussion with several other builders including Barry, Blair, and Lance at Craft Racing.  The consensus seems to be a 40 hp difference between exact combos, with just the block material being different. 

A 140 lb difference could be absorbed by a 40 hp difference, but the handling in a curve car would be the only variable, and that’s if you can’t make up the difference somewhere else.

As for machining differences, the block has to be heated and the sleeves have to be set with torque plates.  Not really “machining” but it is a step that your machinist will have to do.

FWIW, the aluminum block differences just doesn’t apply to FEs, but this discussion on Speedtalk gained the same 30-40 hp results on BBC, SBC, and SBF engines.  Darin Morgan made the most interesting comment, saying that it usually took several rebuilds to “season” the block in order to stabilize the shifting.  One other dirt track engine builder said that on his aluminum block dry sump engines he could hardly pull crankcase vacuum but his iron blocks required a regulator to keep from pulling too much.  It’s a ring seal issue.

I think my vote if the OP is trying to keep it period correct looking would be to snag a factory block and heads.  Nothing more precious than original parts.

$8100 for a new Shelby big bore block.  Not sure if that includes their head studs.  $3800 for a new BBM iron block.  Big difference.  Is there enough value to justify the $4300 delta?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 06:59:54 PM by blykins »
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jayb

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2019, 07:01:42 PM »
I have never heated the block or set the sleeves with torque plates on any of my aluminum blocks.  Its never been necessary; I assume if the block has been improperly machined, that could be a problem.  And sorry Brent, but I'm just not buying the 40 HP difference.  I think with all the engines I've built, I would have noticed something like that...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

blykins

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2019, 07:12:50 PM »
I don’t think it’s a matter of improper machining because the blocks are all stepped.  I think it’s a matter of the block expanding and settling when hot and the sleeves dropping. I have done it on every Pond and Dart aluminum block that I’ve used and you can see the difference when they come out of the oven.  I had a sleeve drop on the dyno once on a block that supposedly had the sleeves installed by the manufacturer.  Not fun.

As for the hp difference, I wish I could be as bold to discount the testimonies of 6-7 other builders....lol

I suppose the Shelby block could be made of some magical alloy that is completely different from every other aluminum block out there, but for the extra $4300 I think I’ll stick with my old heavy cast iron.

Still love you, Jay.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 07:32:35 PM by blykins »
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jayb

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2019, 07:40:07 PM »
 ;D ;D
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

plovett

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2019, 08:53:49 PM »
Jay, your engines make so much power that 40 hp is a much smaller percentage.   Going from 1000 to 960 is kind of hard to feel, or even measure at the track.  :)

Maybe it is not 40 hp.  Maybe it is 30? or ???  But I do think there is a difference.  That would make for a great dyno test which could be included in the next book.  :)

JMO,

paulie

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2019, 09:10:36 PM »
Without getting too deep into any sort of contest....the iron block will definitely make more power than the aluminum one.  I would need to spend time I do not have to pull together hard data, but every iron combination seems to outpour similar aluminum ones by a good bit.  Don't know if its a certain amount of power, but its definitely a few percentage points.  Have a local shop here that does a ton of really similar rules limited oval track deals and he thinks its about 20HP on his 450ish HP stuff.  So maybe 3-5% is a usable figure.  I would expect that compression and quench loss through growth would be a piece of this since the aluminum stuff grows by .008-.010 more at temperature.

Not sure where things are now, but in the past it was really common to have high end naturally aspirated Pro Stock and Cup teams use an iron (or compacted graphite) block, following up with a ton of external CNC machine work to reduce weight, even when an aluminum block was allowed.  Stuff running boost do not really care as much - they can just turn up the wick...weight and reparability are worthwhile when you can make a few thousand horsepower....

plovett

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2019, 09:58:22 PM »
Don't know if its a certain amount of power, but its definitely a few percentage points.  Have a local shop here that does a ton of really similar rules limited oval track deals and he thinks its about 20HP on his 450ish HP stuff.  So maybe 3-5% is a usable figure. I would expect that compression and quench loss through growth would be a piece of this since the aluminum stuff grows by .008-.010 more at temperature.


That is an interesting thought.  Can the last minute tolerances for compression and quench be compensated for in an aluminum block build? Tighter quench and higher calculated compression?  To gain some of that 3-5% back?  Maybe the block would have to be pre-heated before startup?  Or Just allowed to fully heat up before doing anything above idle?  Different piston to wall numbers?   This might be old stuff for you engine builders, but I had not really thought about it.  I have never had an aluminum block, though.  :)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 10:04:26 PM by plovett »

338Raptor

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Re: BBM vs Pond Aluminum block for new SOHC build
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2019, 10:15:52 PM »
So now I believe at my target power level (800hp) the Shelby aluminum or someone else’s iron block are my two best options.  I’m willing to concede 20-40 horsepower for 100+ pounds of weight advantage so the Shelby block is my preference.  Now that I have decided the Shelby block is best for me my next question has to do with stroke. Since crank to cam lobe interference isn’t an issue in a cammer.
Would I be able to utilize a 4.5” crankshaft (with some slight clearancing in the block) and some stroker rods with the rounded/clearances shoulders? 
And if I can get the 4.5” crank to fit would the need for 6.8” or longer rods require oil ring support rails and wrist pin buttons to support the oil rings with such a short compression height? 

Jay, Did you have to do all this stuff on your Shelby strokers?
ERA 427SC Cobra: Iron ‘67 625hp 482” SOHC, TKX 5 speed, TrueTrac 3.31 IRS, Magnesium Halibrands, Avon CR6ZZ tires. 

1969 Shelby GT350, 4 speed.

1967 Mustang Fastback: Close ratio T56 Magnum, Fab-9, Wilwood superlite brakes, Torque arm rear suspension, TCI-IFS with shock tower delete, (Coming soon, FE motor TBD)

1970 F250 4x4 Mud Truck, 557 BBF, as cast P51 heads, 900 hp @6700rpm, 801 tq, Q16, C6.

2012 Cobra Jet Mustang factory drag car, 5.4 liter 4.0 Whipple, 970 RWHP.

1964 Galaxie 500XL, 35 spline 3.70 Strange S-Trac, 6R80, (Coming soon: Pond Aluminum 525 SOHC, 800hp)