Author Topic: Horsepower loss  (Read 7771 times)

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cjshaker

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2019, 04:29:37 PM »
Are all of you just intentionally trying to ignore the difference between track and street?  It is a big difference.

JMO,

paulie

Not at all. Have you forgotten that I've been through 2 Drag Weeks with my car? I wouldn't hesitate to run it again with the Jerico. Full CalTrac rear suspension, MT ET Street tires, and will have a Soft Lok in the near future. Plenty of Drag Week gear bangers do it, it just takes a certain mentality I guess (Read: crazy..lol). Other than having to wait a few seconds before putting it into 1st gear, which the NP435 in my truck is no different, I find no difference in driving the Jerico. I double clutch, but that can be done quickly without issues.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

jayb

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2019, 06:31:35 PM »
When I built my Shelby clone I looked high and low for a manual transmission that would hold up to 800+ foot pounds of torque and 1000 HP.  The only one that would work was a Lenco, and those things steal more horsepower than a good automatic.  A Liberty is not an option for a street car, IMO, because they pop out of gear on deceleration; I wouldn't want to deal with that over a 1000 mile week.  I think for a car down to maybe the low or mid-10s, a manual trans is an option for a street/strip vehicle.  Past that, you are in automatic territory.  So, you slow guys can keep your manuals  ;D ;D  Us 8 and 9 second street guys need an automatic, or a Lenco.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Stangman

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2019, 06:42:12 PM »
Well Jay I doubt I will ever see 8 or 9s but I’m hoping that I get 2 tenths out of the BT 2x4 intake compared to my low riser intake. I think it was you that said the difference between the lowriser 2x4 and the BT 2x4 intake was 30 horsepower. I’m at 11.11 and hoping for 10.90s.

Nightmist66

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2019, 07:33:52 PM »
A stock top loader will not hold up to an 11 second or faster street car.

Maybe some mis-information?
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

Nightmist66

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2019, 07:40:30 PM »
I think for a car down to maybe the low or mid-10s, a manual trans is an option for a street/strip vehicle.  Past that, you are in automatic territory.  So, you slow guys can keep your manuals  ;D ;D

Right, "slow". Check this one out. H pattern shifted too!

https://youtu.be/VTuOWO5ESDg

Oh yeah, it gets driven on the street too.Try to keep up, Jay  ;)
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

KjcfeF100

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2019, 08:04:23 PM »
Quote
looked high and low for a manual transmission that would hold up to 800+ foot pounds of torque and 1000 HP.  The only one that would work was a Lenco, and those things steal more horsepower than a good automatic.

Just my .02 worth,
I can't personally confirm the HP rating with my own experience or anyone I personally know; but I was told by G-Force transmissions that their GF-5R can handle up to 1300 HP depending on the weight of the vehicle.  And the Liberty LSC5100 is showing "Rated to approximately 1,100 horsepower".   Heavier vehicles of course lower that rating.  I'd suppose that the combination of several factors, including mainly the clutch tune with a "Soft-Loc" style slipper clutch plays a large part in it's survival........... FWIW, I'd have to admit that driving my F100 with it's GF-5R, Soft-Loc,  and the vertical-gate shifter isn't always "Fun" on the street, but it can be done.  But come time to wind it up and run through the gears, I wouldn't have it any other way...... but I'm also not trying to win bracket races week in and week out, nor do I have 1000 HP on tap (but I'd like to some day).

jayb

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2019, 08:15:20 PM »
I think for a car down to maybe the low or mid-10s, a manual trans is an option for a street/strip vehicle.  Past that, you are in automatic territory.  So, you slow guys can keep your manuals  ;D ;D

Right, "slow". Check this one out. H pattern shifted too!

https://youtu.be/VTuOWO5ESDg

Oh yeah, it gets driven on the street too.Try to keep up, Jay  ;)

Sounds like BS to me.  I wouldn't want to drive a faceplated trans on the street for any extended period.  A trip down to the burger joint on Friday night doesn't count, you can do that in a funny car.  By the way, I have two T-56 Magnums, they are a great transmission.  My Shelby clone would fry one though.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Rory428

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2019, 08:22:30 PM »
Jay, not sure where you heard that a Lenco absorbs more power than an automatic, but I doubt it. Several guys in our local stickshift race group, use Lencos,and I asked one of them about that, and he says they do take some power in low gear, but after every shift, you reduce that drag, as you are not running thru that planetary gearset any more, and by the time you are in high, its close to the same as a regular stick trans. Many of you guys might be familiar with this fellows "slow" street car, and blue 67 Fairlane, that runs mid 8s with a naturally aspirated small block Ford, with a 5 speed Lenco ST1200 "street" transmission. Google his name, Grant Klohn, or check on Youtube, there is a number of videos of his Fairlane out there.
On a personal level, I can give 2 examples on my own cars. My 428 FE powered Fairmont ran a best of 10.55ET @ 126 MPH with a pretty good C6, low drag Torrington bearings thru out, reverse pattern, transbrake valve body, and 8 " torque convertor. With the C6, I could go 4500 RPM with the brake pedal, and normally launched at WOT with the transbrake, which allowed 5200 RPM. With NO other changes, than replacing the automatic with a Jerico 4 speed and McLeod "Soft Lok" clutch, the car improved by over 1/2 second and 6 MPH (10.03 @ 132MPH). If you want a more street friendly application, I used to have a different 78 Fairmont, daily driver that saw weekend strip action. It had a mild 302, and with a C4 with a shift kit and 2600 B&M convertor,and 3.55 gears, ran a best of 13.72 @ 98 MPH on 8 1/2x26" slicks. I later changed from the C4 to a stock, Junkyard T5 from a 5.0 Mustang, with a Hurst shifter and a $169.00 stock replacement clutch kit. Again, I changed nothing else on the car, and at the track, it improved by almost 9 tenths and 8 MPH, best of 12.80 @106 MPH, on the same slicks. On the occasional "Street Legals" race, I ran it on the Grandpa 205/75R15 whitewalls, and it would still run 13.30s, leaving just above idle, which was almost 1/2 second quicker than it ran with the C4 on slicks. Also, compared to the C4, the T5s overdriven 5th  knocked almost 1000 RPM off the freeway speeds, and obviously that was a boost for gas mileage. Of course, some guys can run slower with a MANual transmission, I have seen them do just that, but after watching their feeble attempts of driving with a clutch, I have determined they couldn`t drive a thirsty duck to a water filled lake! :o   By the way,the quickest car that I have driven to date, was a tube chassis, Super Gas 86 Thunderbird, with a 460 based Ford big block, and air shifted Powerglide. Along with being the quickest I have gone  (9.3s @ 138 MPH), it was hands down the more boring car I have ever taken down the 1/4 mile. To me, if it ain`t fun, I don`t wanna drive it!
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

Nightmist66

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2019, 08:29:12 PM »
Sounds like BS to me.  I wouldn't want to drive a faceplated trans on the street for any extended period.  A trip down to the burger joint on Friday night doesn't count, you can do that in a funny car.


Why on both counts? Just search Minion Mustang. You'll find he drives it on the street a little more than just to get a burger. I know it's not FE, but this is the time we're living in....281 cubes, factory block, factory crank, factory heads"worked", turbos, and 8600rpm. Plenty of guys nowadays are running faceplated transes on the street....
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

jayb

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2019, 08:31:41 PM »
Larry Larson told me that about Lencos.  I believe him.  The Pro Stock guys all switched from Lencos to Liberties because of the power consumption of the Lenco.  You are correct though that the power loss diminishes as you remove the gears, so in high gear its pretty much just like a manual.  I thought pretty hard about one of those street Lencos for my car when I was first building it...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2019, 08:40:19 PM »
Sounds like BS to me.  I wouldn't want to drive a faceplated trans on the street for any extended period.  A trip down to the burger joint on Friday night doesn't count, you can do that in a funny car.


Why on both counts? Just search Minion Mustang. You'll find he drives it on the street a little more than just to get a burger. I know it's not FE, but this is the time we're living in....281 cubes, factory block, factory crank, factory heads"worked", turbos, and 8600rpm. Plenty of guys nowadays are running faceplated transes on the street....

Jared, everybody says they street their car.  Nobody really does it, except the Drag Week crowd.  I've only driven one faceplated transmission, back in 2005, but to me it just wasn't livable as a normal driving car.  Automatics, on the other hand, are.  The torque converters you can get now make a 6000 RPM stall easily street friendly.

As far as the motor in that car though, I believe every bit of it; it is amazing what a stock shortblock will take these days.  There is some guy running a couple turbos on a stock Ford GT short block and making something like 1300 horsepower.  Remarkable...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2019, 09:18:37 PM »
Larry Larson told me that about Lencos.  I believe him.  The Pro Stock guys all switched from Lencos to Liberties because of the power consumption of the Lenco.  You are correct though that the power loss diminishes as you remove the gears, so in high gear its pretty much just like a manual.  I thought pretty hard about one of those street Lencos for my car when I was first building it...

Besides, many may not realize that a Lenco does require a lot of attention to keep tension on the clutch packs (think: fish scale to check tension on each segment) whereas a stick or auto trans doesn't.
Bob Maag

cjshaker

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2019, 07:31:26 AM »
The Pro Stock guys all switched from Lencos to Liberties because of the power consumption of the Lenco. 

The key word missing there is....wait for it....automatic..lol  Pro Stock guys will spend truckloads of cash to gain just a few thousandths in ET, because it's that competitive. Still, you won't find an auto anywhere near the bunch.

Bob, I think Lencos are pretty trouble and maintenance free through a racing season. It's only during off seasons that they are gone through and have the clutch packs checked and tensions set. Pretty normal for the entire drivetrain, at those levels of racing.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

machoneman

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2019, 07:52:16 AM »
The Pro Stock guys all switched from Lencos to Liberties because of the power consumption of the Lenco. 

The key word missing there is....wait for it....automatic..lol  Pro Stock guys will spend truckloads of cash to gain just a few thousandths in ET, because it's that competitive. Still, you won't find an auto anywhere near the bunch.

Bob, I think Lencos are pretty trouble and maintenance free through a racing season. It's only during off seasons that they are gone through and have the clutch packs checked and tensions set. Pretty normal for the entire drivetrain, at those levels of racing.

Yeah, I guess one can get away with low maintenance in low (relatively speaking) street cars as I was thinking of our time with 2-3 speeds in our pal's Alky dragsters back then and the Pro Stock guys we pitted near. They were always checking tension but hey, they were all-out race cars, not street users of the Lenco. Great trans btw in my opinion but too crazy to use on the street.
Bob Maag

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: Horsepower loss
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2019, 07:55:44 AM »
We have a couple Lenco's in our group.   They are pretty bulletproof, but agree you need to keep up on the clutch pack pressures. I guess no different then regular clutch maintenance?  Once you find your groove, you just need to keep up with it.

One racer went from a Jerico(that he broke constantly), to a Lenco and it lost 2-3 tenths.  Yes, high gear is straight through, but you have a few gears to get by first.  That is where all the losses occur.  He has now sold it and put a Liberty 5 spd in it.  He's back down to 9.0's, instead of 20's-30's.


Joe,  My buddy ran a LR intake at first.  He was barely quicker then me back when I ran mid 11's.   His Tbolt should have been much faster.  I broke my transmission at the end of the year and gave him my Dove TW to try out.   He picked up .5 and a few MPH.   We actually had to readjust the front alignment because the front end was staying up so high down track it was getting unstable.  He was AMAZED at the difference and bought a Dove TW that winter.  This was a LONG time ago.

Jay,  faceplated transmission are not that horrible.  Do they take "finesse", well ya.  If you drive it like grandpa, shifting with just a nice slow motion they don't even make a click noise.  It's all in the timing.  No different then driving a big truck.  It gets done every day of the week.  Though there are some that just don't want to deal with it.  I get it.
Larry