Horsepower loss

[Stangman]

Curious they say a C-6 drains 60-70 horsepower and a C-4 about 40 horsepower. Does a manual tranny cost any horsepower. Wondering if a car would be faster with a stick compared to an automatic if traction was the same for both.

[plovett]

Curious they say a C-6 drains 60-70 horsepower and a C-4 about 40 horsepower. Does a manual tranny cost any horsepower. Wondering if a car would be faster with a stick compared to an automatic if traction was the same for both.

A manual trans costs some power, but much less.  My opinion is that a fully setup track car, with scienced-out suspension will definitely be faster with a manual.  On the the street, on un-prepped street surfaces, on street tires, with a street suspension, the auto will be faster.  It just applies the power more smoothly.

So traction the same:  Is it great or poor traction?  That is the big difference.  Poor traction favors the automatic and great traction favors the manual.  .....in general.....

JMO,

paulie

[plovett]

I swing both ways.  Hey, it IS 2019.    As I get older and slower I tend to want a manual again.   When I was younger and just trying to go as fast as possible in a real street car, I liked the automatic.  It is all about hooking up in real street situations when you get over 550 hp. 

JMO,

paulie

[plovett]

Okay, low hp street cars are pretty much always faster with manuals because they don't have traction issues.  Say a 210 hp 1985 Mustang GT.  Always faster with a manual.  Start making real power and the auto gains the advantage, on the street. 

I can almost, but not quite hook up on the street with cheater slicks.  There is dust and pebbles and grease.  But with a stick I would be much slower in terms of ET at least, on the street. 

JMO,

paulie

[plovett]

street or track???  Makes all the difference.  shutting up now. 

paulie

[mike7570]

NHRA separates stock and super stock by stick and auto, just check the index's for each and you'll have your answer.

[plovett]

But that is racing on a track.  The street is a whole different place.

JMO,

paulie

[jayb]

The numbers I've heard for drag in an automatic trans are more like 55-60 HP for the C-6, and 20-25 for the C-4.  Powerglide is about 20 HP also.  Manuals aren't much better than that.  From my own experience, pulling out the C-6 and installing the C-4, it felt like the emergency brake had been released.  Stock C-6s do take a whole bunch of power to run.

[plovett]

The numbers I've heard for drag in an automatic trans are more like 55-60 HP for the C-6, and 20-25 for the C-4.  Powerglide is about 20 HP also.  Manuals aren't much better than that.  From my own experience, pulling out the C-6 and installing the C-4, it felt like the emergency brake had been released.  Stock C-6s do take a whole bunch of power to run.

I think the standard gain from C6 to C4 is about 0.15 seconds.  Very significant, IMO.

JMO,

paulie

[cjshaker]

And the standard gain from auto to manual is .05-.1 

Like Mike mentioned, NHRA manual trans class indexes are always equal or lower, meaning faster.  I'm not saying autos are slow, just given the same parameters, a manual frees up enough horsepower to show a difference.

[plovett]

And the standard gain from auto to manual is .05-.1 

Like Mike mentioned, NHRA manual trans class indexes are always equal or lower, meaning faster.  I'm not saying autos are slow, just given the same parameters, a manual frees up enough horsepower to show a difference.

Are you not listening?  There is a huge difference between going fast in a track car and a real street car.   The manual trans car will always have more potential, but as you have found it is harder to get to the ground.

JMO,

paulie

[jayb]

Like Mike mentioned, NHRA manual trans class indexes are always equal or lower, meaning faster.  I'm not saying autos are slow, just given the same parameters, a manual frees up enough horsepower to show a difference.

As far as I can tell that is not true, usually the manual indexes are 0.05 seconds faster, but some are the same, such as L stock and M stock.  Also, the class records are all over the place.  Here are some current record comparisons from the Stock Eliminator classes, from the NHRA web site:

A/S: 10.45;    A/SA:  9.65
B/S:  10.04;   B/SA:  10.05
C/S:  10.85;   C/SA:  10.90
D/S:  11.0;    D/SA:  9.99
E/S:  11.15,   E/SA:  10.44

I think a manual transmission's main advantage is due to the additional gear that is usually found in our older cars, allowing you to keep the engine closer to the peak powerband on the track.  Automatics have the advantage in shift time and torque multiplication via the torque converter.  The parasitic loss between a good race prepped manual and automatic is pretty insignificant, IMO.  Even a race prepped C-6 won't take much more power to run than a manual, although a stock C-6 is a real power hog.  I love driving a stick car on the street, but I'll take an automatic at the track every time.

https://www.nhra.com/stats/class_indexes

https://www.nhra.com/stats/14-mile-records-stock-eliminator

[mike7570]

^^^can't really compare records because NHRA retires them periodically. The number that shows a stick car higher is a new minimum. Also records are only set during official attempts. You'll see a r in a circle on windshield. So cars can run quicker and not set a record. Using the index’s would be more accurate.
Rory should have some input on stick vs auto.

[jayb]

The problem with hanging your hat on the indexes is that everyone runs so far underneath them, that they are practically meaningless.  They are also arbitrary; for example, most of the indexes for manual cars are exactly 0.05 seconds faster than for the stick cars.  Real life doesn't work like that.  Back to the original point, I think if the manual trans has an advantage, its due to the extra gear, not power loss in the automatic.

[cjshaker]

Are you not listening?  There is a huge difference between going fast in a track car and a real street car.   The manual trans car will always have more potential, but as you have found it is harder to get to the ground.

JMO,

paulie

Uhh, Paulie, perhaps you should read Joe's initial question...."if traction was the same for both". So to answer your question, no, I'm not listening to your opinion, I'm looking at facts.

I'm not trying to be biased,  just looking at the facts, nothing else. Indexes are the best comparative to look at, and I don't think you can find one instance where an automatic is quicker than a manual. And I don't think you'll find an instance where a manual draws more power than an automatic. More available power means more power to the wheels. Getting it to hook is another matter; one that class Eliminator racers generally don't have a problem with.

I agree that autos have an advantage over manuals in some ways, as Jay noted, but in the end, manual indexes are usually quicker, and never slower. And once you get out of Eliminator classes, air shifting and clutchless manuals negates any advantage that an auto has in shifting.

If it were strictly a 'more gears' thing, then why aren't there 5-10 speed automatics dominating the racing scene? They've been around for some time now.

[Stangman]

Thanks guys, it was just a thought. I always wanted to put a stick in my car but  didn’t want to be breaking stuff. I just know that I wouldn’t granny shift and would break stuff. I have a TCI C-6 and converter, not Rollerized and was just wondering if a Jericho or Richmond tranny would be faster. Like was said I only go to the track 3or4 times a year and only put like 1000 miles a year on car. I’m home for a month after surgery and I don’t have much to do but think of stuff like benchracing.

[cjshaker]

It would be an interesting comparison to see the exact same car/set-up being compared with a 5 spd auto vs. a 5 spd manual, but even that has several limiting factors, like trans used, how it's prepped etc etc.

And just to throw some nitro on the embers....I've always found this picture to be helpful 

[Stangman]

You just always think about what is the perfect combination. When I was a kid my car was a legitimate stock r code 427 lowriser with a edelbrock F 427 intake with a 735 Holley C-6 with a shift kit and stock converter , a 9 inch with 3.08 gears. With slicks and open headers if I remember correctly ( this was in like 1982 ) ran between 12.20 and 12.50.
Stroked it with a 428 crank original low riser 2x4 intake and twin 600s and install 4.11s and 3000 stall and went 11.69.
Now 485 3.70s and still same tranny and converter intake but with twin QF 750s drag radials and survival heads 11.11.
Now right before mt surgery I installed a BT 2x4 intake but obviously didn’t run it matter of fact didn’t even drive it yet.
Doug’s car is what brought up this thread I think with a stock 427 mediumriser motor running 11.50s and with 60 ft times that are off by 2 tenths he’s gonna have a great combination. It made me think of the whole horsepower loss through an automatic.
Great job Doug.

[cjshaker]

It's interesting to bench race and make comparisons. Like you said, Joe, combo is everything. I've thought about why the steep 1st gear in my Jerico made such a huge difference. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm running a stock 3.78 stroke bigger bore engine. A 427 relies more on RPM than a 428 would, with its longer stroke. If I was winding my engine higher than what I do (6500 max), I could use more gear, but as it is, I'm crossing the line at about 6200, which is pretty much spot on for my build. A big stroker would probably get away with a numerically much lower first. But I'm no expert, so that's all guessing on my part.

No doubt Jay has a valid point on the extra gear and keeping the engine in its power band. That's why the new 'muscle cars', and their 10 speed autos are running some great numbers straight out of the factory.

[chilly460]

I seem to remember Rory chiming in on previous posts where he'd switched from C6 to Toploader (maybe Jericho?) with no other changes and noted a fairly significant improvement.  Hopefully he sees this.

[plovett]

What I was trying to say is "traction being the same" is not enough information.  Is the traction bad and the same, or fantastic and the same?  It means everything, IMO.

[wowens]

It would be an interesting comparison to see the exact same car/set-up being compared with a 5 spd auto vs. a 5 spd manual, but even that has several limiting factors, like trans used, how it's prepped etc etc.

And just to throw some nitro on the embers....I've always found this picture to be helpful 

My sentiments perfectly stated

[plovett]

I seem to remember Rory chiming in on previous posts where he'd switched from C6 to Toploader (maybe Jericho?) with no other changes and noted a fairly significant improvement.  Hopefully he sees this.

Rory races at the track with a good suspension, slicks, and a well prepared surface. Makes a big difference.  At extreme power/weight levels the autos come back to the top again.  Hence the two speed powerglides.  It is funny how it goes back and forth.

[plovett]

I do agree that the C6 is a power hog, but cheap and durable.

[Falcon67]

What I was trying to say is "traction being the same" is not enough information.  Is the traction bad and the same, or fantastic and the same?  It means everything, IMO.

You can only tune your manual with RPM.  When you let fly, you shock the hell out of the driveline.  I can tune my auto with lower rotating mass and with the converter which can do a ton of torque multiplication.  I can also pre-load my driveline to reduce chance of breakage.  Both require suspension work to optimize, that's for sure.  HP loss through the device is only part of what makes fast.  Plus I can pretty much be assured that my air shifter/RPM controller backed with 90 PSI of air can change gears way faster than you can with your arm+foot.

Other than that, manual takes more skill and can easily be seen as "more fun"   

[BattlestarGalactic]

What I was trying to say is "traction being the same" is not enough information.  Is the traction bad and the same, or fantastic and the same?  It means everything, IMO.

You can only tune your manual with RPM.  When you let fly, you shock the hell out of the driveline.  I can tune my auto with lower rotating mass and with the converter which can do a ton of torque multiplication.  I can also pre-load my driveline to reduce chance of breakage.  Both require suspension work to optimize, that's for sure.  HP loss through the device is only part of what makes fast.  Plus I can pretty much be assured that my air shifter/RPM controller backed with 90 PSI of air can change gears way faster than you can with your arm+foot.

Other than that, manual takes more skill and can easily be seen as "more fun"   

And there you have it in plain english.  The automatic isn't faster by any means(the HP losses are cut and dry), just easier for ones that don't/can't make a stick car work.  You can mush it around all you want, but that's the truth of it. Street or strip.   If I loosen my clutch up, I can get it to hook on water.  But then it's a real maintenance deal.  I like going rounds and not working on it, so I don't have it set on kill.  So Automatics are EASIER.  That's it.

The whole "shift faster"?   Not sure if you can compare apples to apples.  Yes, that shift noid will bang it hard.  Ever shift a Liberty equalizer?  It's instantaneously in the next gear.  No Lag.   Yes, you have to move your arm, blah, blah, blah.  But the time between gears is zero.  Beyond the clutch slippage as it changes.  Yes, it basically drives through the clutch as the next gear hits.  If not, parts would fall out of the bottom.  No different then converter slippage as it increases the load on the next gear.  I use the clutch on my GF5R.  Ya, slower engagement then clutchless.  But who cares?  I just want to run the same number, not worry about being .01 faster.   Last weekend, my two TT were 10.925 and 10.929.  Not too hateful for a 4000# stick car with 10.5" tire and TWO vacuum Holleys.  At Beaver, two rounds of elims I was dead on 2 and dead on zero flat out. 

The "glide"?  Everyone likes them for bracket racing because they leave soft(not much first gear) and only one shift so there is very, very little chance of missing it.  Plus it helps in consistency.  With only one change of gear, it removes all the added effects of multiple gear changes and the change of ET from them.  I know some dragster guys that basically shift their glide at about 60ft.  Just enough to get the car moving, then shift.   It's all about consistency.  ET isn't the purpose.  They just put bigger motors in.  It's too easy today.

[cjshaker]

And then there are air-shifted Libertys and Lencos. Or Lencos that use torque convertors. No shortage of ways to spend money on race cars, that's for sure!

[Tommy-T]

I bow down to the guys that like man-u-al transmissions. I'm not one, but the look of Hurst linkage sticking up through the floor is undeniably cool. I'll never forget Dale telling me that I'll put a 4 speed in my hot rod when I "grow up".
I've built 2 4 speed Fairlanes in my life. After driving them in LA traffic I couldn't wait to be rid of them. Plus...it's hard to hold your Starbucks in one hand and shift.
Yes, it's just easier to run a C6. As far as I'm concerned the only drawback is they're huge, especially the FE variation with the big round bell.
A few FE pals of mine switched to a C4. If you don't mind putting a new one in every 2 years, it's the way to go. It's tiny and not that hard to tear up.
As far as 4 speeds go, this is my observance. A stock top loader will not hold up to an 11 second or faster street car. Once you change to a dedicated drag 4 speed with a soft lok clutch your car becomes a REAL drag to run on the street.
A stock C6 with some easy upgrades and a commercial 10" converter (not a fancy custom job) will hold up in an 11 second street car for years. In my experience, when you freshen your motor, send your C6 to your trans guy for freshening. Rarely is anything broken. Still true is that your C6 is probably costing you a half-a-second over your C4 and stick buddies.

TomP calls us automatic guys "pink shirters". I've certainly got enough t-shirts with ATF stains for sure!

[plovett]

Are all of you just intentionally trying to ignore the difference between track and street?  It is a big difference.

JMO,

paulie

[BattlestarGalactic]

I could drive my wagon to work every day and never hurt the clutch.  It's light, real light.  I have two return springs on the z bar to make sure it pulls back.  Like I tell everyone, it's not an issue.  Only if you try to "show off" like you did with a 3200 rag disc.  You can't go around trying to chirp the tires.  The light clutch will not do it.  Just burn itself to pieces.

Paulie, I don't see any real difference between street and strip and auto and stick.   If you have a potent motor, any transmission can blaze the tires at will on the open road.  Oh, you can powerbrake and "leave softer" with an automatic.  Oh, I can leave at 2000 rpm with a stick too.  With a soft clutch there is MINIMAL difference.  Again, it's all in the set up.  MOST guys do not want to deal with it on the street.  Thus they use an automatic.  Plain and simple.  One isn't better, it's just EASIER for the masses.

[cjshaker]

Are all of you just intentionally trying to ignore the difference between track and street?  It is a big difference.

JMO,

paulie

Not at all. Have you forgotten that I've been through 2 Drag Weeks with my car? I wouldn't hesitate to run it again with the Jerico. Full CalTrac rear suspension, MT ET Street tires, and will have a Soft Lok in the near future. Plenty of Drag Week gear bangers do it, it just takes a certain mentality I guess (Read: crazy..lol). Other than having to wait a few seconds before putting it into 1st gear, which the NP435 in my truck is no different, I find no difference in driving the Jerico. I double clutch, but that can be done quickly without issues.

[jayb]

When I built my Shelby clone I looked high and low for a manual transmission that would hold up to 800+ foot pounds of torque and 1000 HP.  The only one that would work was a Lenco, and those things steal more horsepower than a good automatic.  A Liberty is not an option for a street car, IMO, because they pop out of gear on deceleration; I wouldn't want to deal with that over a 1000 mile week.  I think for a car down to maybe the low or mid-10s, a manual trans is an option for a street/strip vehicle.  Past that, you are in automatic territory.  So, you slow guys can keep your manuals    Us 8 and 9 second street guys need an automatic, or a Lenco.

[Stangman]

Well Jay I doubt I will ever see 8 or 9s but I’m hoping that I get 2 tenths out of the BT 2x4 intake compared to my low riser intake. I think it was you that said the difference between the lowriser 2x4 and the BT 2x4 intake was 30 horsepower. I’m at 11.11 and hoping for 10.90s.

[Nightmist66]

A stock top loader will not hold up to an 11 second or faster street car.

Maybe some mis-information?

[Nightmist66]

I think for a car down to maybe the low or mid-10s, a manual trans is an option for a street/strip vehicle.  Past that, you are in automatic territory.  So, you slow guys can keep your manuals 

Right, "slow". Check this one out. H pattern shifted too!

https://youtu.be/VTuOWO5ESDg

Oh yeah, it gets driven on the street too.Try to keep up, Jay 

[KjcfeF100]

looked high and low for a manual transmission that would hold up to 800+ foot pounds of torque and 1000 HP.  The only one that would work was a Lenco, and those things steal more horsepower than a good automatic.

Just my .02 worth,
I can't personally confirm the HP rating with my own experience or anyone I personally know; but I was told by G-Force transmissions that their GF-5R can handle up to 1300 HP depending on the weight of the vehicle.  And the Liberty LSC5100 is showing "Rated to approximately 1,100 horsepower".   Heavier vehicles of course lower that rating.  I'd suppose that the combination of several factors, including mainly the clutch tune with a "Soft-Loc" style slipper clutch plays a large part in it's survival........... FWIW, I'd have to admit that driving my F100 with it's GF-5R, Soft-Loc,  and the vertical-gate shifter isn't always "Fun" on the street, but it can be done.  But come time to wind it up and run through the gears, I wouldn't have it any other way...... but I'm also not trying to win bracket races week in and week out, nor do I have 1000 HP on tap (but I'd like to some day).

[jayb]

I think for a car down to maybe the low or mid-10s, a manual trans is an option for a street/strip vehicle.  Past that, you are in automatic territory.  So, you slow guys can keep your manuals 

Right, "slow". Check this one out. H pattern shifted too!

https://youtu.be/VTuOWO5ESDg

Oh yeah, it gets driven on the street too.Try to keep up, Jay 

Sounds like BS to me.  I wouldn't want to drive a faceplated trans on the street for any extended period.  A trip down to the burger joint on Friday night doesn't count, you can do that in a funny car.  By the way, I have two T-56 Magnums, they are a great transmission.  My Shelby clone would fry one though.

[Rory428]

Jay, not sure where you heard that a Lenco absorbs more power than an automatic, but I doubt it. Several guys in our local stickshift race group, use Lencos,and I asked one of them about that, and he says they do take some power in low gear, but after every shift, you reduce that drag, as you are not running thru that planetary gearset any more, and by the time you are in high, its close to the same as a regular stick trans. Many of you guys might be familiar with this fellows "slow" street car, and blue 67 Fairlane, that runs mid 8s with a naturally aspirated small block Ford, with a 5 speed Lenco ST1200 "street" transmission. Google his name, Grant Klohn, or check on Youtube, there is a number of videos of his Fairlane out there.
On a personal level, I can give 2 examples on my own cars. My 428 FE powered Fairmont ran a best of 10.55ET @ 126 MPH with a pretty good C6, low drag Torrington bearings thru out, reverse pattern, transbrake valve body, and 8 " torque convertor. With the C6, I could go 4500 RPM with the brake pedal, and normally launched at WOT with the transbrake, which allowed 5200 RPM. With NO other changes, than replacing the automatic with a Jerico 4 speed and McLeod "Soft Lok" clutch, the car improved by over 1/2 second and 6 MPH (10.03 @ 132MPH). If you want a more street friendly application, I used to have a different 78 Fairmont, daily driver that saw weekend strip action. It had a mild 302, and with a C4 with a shift kit and 2600 B&M convertor,and 3.55 gears, ran a best of 13.72 @ 98 MPH on 8 1/2x26" slicks. I later changed from the C4 to a stock, Junkyard T5 from a 5.0 Mustang, with a Hurst shifter and a $169.00 stock replacement clutch kit. Again, I changed nothing else on the car, and at the track, it improved by almost 9 tenths and 8 MPH, best of 12.80 @106 MPH, on the same slicks. On the occasional "Street Legals" race, I ran it on the Grandpa 205/75R15 whitewalls, and it would still run 13.30s, leaving just above idle, which was almost 1/2 second quicker than it ran with the C4 on slicks. Also, compared to the C4, the T5s overdriven 5th  knocked almost 1000 RPM off the freeway speeds, and obviously that was a boost for gas mileage. Of course, some guys can run slower with a MANual transmission, I have seen them do just that, but after watching their feeble attempts of driving with a clutch, I have determined they couldn`t drive a thirsty duck to a water filled lake!    By the way,the quickest car that I have driven to date, was a tube chassis, Super Gas 86 Thunderbird, with a 460 based Ford big block, and air shifted Powerglide. Along with being the quickest I have gone  (9.3s @ 138 MPH), it was hands down the more boring car I have ever taken down the 1/4 mile. To me, if it ain`t fun, I don`t wanna drive it!

[Nightmist66]

Sounds like BS to me.  I wouldn't want to drive a faceplated trans on the street for any extended period.  A trip down to the burger joint on Friday night doesn't count, you can do that in a funny car.

Why on both counts? Just search Minion Mustang. You'll find he drives it on the street a little more than just to get a burger. I know it's not FE, but this is the time we're living in....281 cubes, factory block, factory crank, factory heads"worked", turbos, and 8600rpm. Plenty of guys nowadays are running faceplated transes on the street....

[jayb]

Larry Larson told me that about Lencos.  I believe him.  The Pro Stock guys all switched from Lencos to Liberties because of the power consumption of the Lenco.  You are correct though that the power loss diminishes as you remove the gears, so in high gear its pretty much just like a manual.  I thought pretty hard about one of those street Lencos for my car when I was first building it...

[jayb]

Sounds like BS to me.  I wouldn't want to drive a faceplated trans on the street for any extended period.  A trip down to the burger joint on Friday night doesn't count, you can do that in a funny car.

Why on both counts? Just search Minion Mustang. You'll find he drives it on the street a little more than just to get a burger. I know it's not FE, but this is the time we're living in....281 cubes, factory block, factory crank, factory heads"worked", turbos, and 8600rpm. Plenty of guys nowadays are running faceplated transes on the street....

Jared, everybody says they street their car.  Nobody really does it, except the Drag Week crowd.  I've only driven one faceplated transmission, back in 2005, but to me it just wasn't livable as a normal driving car.  Automatics, on the other hand, are.  The torque converters you can get now make a 6000 RPM stall easily street friendly.

As far as the motor in that car though, I believe every bit of it; it is amazing what a stock shortblock will take these days.  There is some guy running a couple turbos on a stock Ford GT short block and making something like 1300 horsepower.  Remarkable...

[machoneman]

Larry Larson told me that about Lencos.  I believe him.  The Pro Stock guys all switched from Lencos to Liberties because of the power consumption of the Lenco.  You are correct though that the power loss diminishes as you remove the gears, so in high gear its pretty much just like a manual.  I thought pretty hard about one of those street Lencos for my car when I was first building it...

Besides, many may not realize that a Lenco does require a lot of attention to keep tension on the clutch packs (think: fish scale to check tension on each segment) whereas a stick or auto trans doesn't.

[cjshaker]

The Pro Stock guys all switched from Lencos to Liberties because of the power consumption of the Lenco. 

The key word missing there is....wait for it....automatic..lol  Pro Stock guys will spend truckloads of cash to gain just a few thousandths in ET, because it's that competitive. Still, you won't find an auto anywhere near the bunch.

Bob, I think Lencos are pretty trouble and maintenance free through a racing season. It's only during off seasons that they are gone through and have the clutch packs checked and tensions set. Pretty normal for the entire drivetrain, at those levels of racing.

[machoneman]

The Pro Stock guys all switched from Lencos to Liberties because of the power consumption of the Lenco. 

The key word missing there is....wait for it....automatic..lol  Pro Stock guys will spend truckloads of cash to gain just a few thousandths in ET, because it's that competitive. Still, you won't find an auto anywhere near the bunch.

Bob, I think Lencos are pretty trouble and maintenance free through a racing season. It's only during off seasons that they are gone through and have the clutch packs checked and tensions set. Pretty normal for the entire drivetrain, at those levels of racing.

Yeah, I guess one can get away with low maintenance in low (relatively speaking) street cars as I was thinking of our time with 2-3 speeds in our pal's Alky dragsters back then and the Pro Stock guys we pitted near. They were always checking tension but hey, they were all-out race cars, not street users of the Lenco. Great trans btw in my opinion but too crazy to use on the street.

[BattlestarGalactic]

We have a couple Lenco's in our group.   They are pretty bulletproof, but agree you need to keep up on the clutch pack pressures. I guess no different then regular clutch maintenance?  Once you find your groove, you just need to keep up with it.

One racer went from a Jerico(that he broke constantly), to a Lenco and it lost 2-3 tenths.  Yes, high gear is straight through, but you have a few gears to get by first.  That is where all the losses occur.  He has now sold it and put a Liberty 5 spd in it.  He's back down to 9.0's, instead of 20's-30's.


Joe,  My buddy ran a LR intake at first.  He was barely quicker then me back when I ran mid 11's.   His Tbolt should have been much faster.  I broke my transmission at the end of the year and gave him my Dove TW to try out.   He picked up .5 and a few MPH.   We actually had to readjust the front alignment because the front end was staying up so high down track it was getting unstable.  He was AMAZED at the difference and bought a Dove TW that winter.  This was a LONG time ago.

Jay,  faceplated transmission are not that horrible.  Do they take "finesse", well ya.  If you drive it like grandpa, shifting with just a nice slow motion they don't even make a click noise.  It's all in the timing.  No different then driving a big truck.  It gets done every day of the week.  Though there are some that just don't want to deal with it.  I get it.

[Falcon67]

LOL - a planetary trans with an air shifter and a clutch you let go of once is just an automatic.  Same difference.     Ever heard of a Clutch Flite?  And pulling levers in a Pro Stock car isn't any different than pulling on a B&M Pro Ratchet attached to a built C4 auto.  Watch the shift light, yank the lever.  The fact that it doesn't have a converter between the trans and the motor is immaterial.

I was thinking more about your regular trans and street/strip type deal.  Yes, I've seen a manual go rounds when bracket racing.  It's just that most of us don't.  My personal opinion is that once you get down in the 11s or high 10s, I'd like both hand controlling the car and not manually shifting (either auto or stick) anymore.  Again, since I bracket race and we don't do any heads up style racing around these parts I can use the extra time to be watching my opponent and making strategy decisions on the way down.  Anything else is a distraction from the task at hand.  If it's just TnT, banging gears and/or doing the heads up thing - to each their own happiness.  I still have a stack of flywheels, the Mr. Gasket shifter, trans, bell, etc piled up in the shed.  If we keep the 70 Mustang, I just might stick the old RAN 3 speed in it for old days fun.  That trans has been run a lot at Green Valley in the way back LOL.  I used to be pretty good at the gear thing.  Kinda hate it that the old 4 speed top loaders are so much $$$$ these days. 

[Barry_R]

My Torino is a +/-3700 pound street style car with a face plated top loader with an H pattern shifter and a Tim Hyatt modified soft-loc.  It does run 10s through the exhaust on ET Streets.  Before I face plated it the trans would not shift worth a damn at high RPM - but it has a 7500 RPM shift point, so that might not be a very fair comparison for most street builds. 

I have and do drive it around a little bit, but will readily admit that it is not a great deal of fun for normal usage.  The trans can be upshifted and downshifted if you match RPM with no real drama other than an occasional "clank".  The clutch is another deal for me - it starts out decent with some slip if you tag throttle in high gear from a modest speed roll, but after some drive time it seems to get hot and grabby - stalling the engine on light engagement or letting out a big ol' screech as you try to slip it enough to leave a traffic light.

Thinking really hard about going to a T56 and some sort of streetable clutch for cruising around since I don't get to a race track more than a couple times per year anymore.  Anybody want to trade?? 

[BattlestarGalactic]

it starts out decent with some slip if you tag throttle in high gear from a modest speed roll,

Barry has just told you exactly what happens if you drive a sof lok incorrectly on the street.  Yes, it's a metallic clutch so it gets grabby the more you use it(slip it).  You CAN NOT play with it at low rpm.  It will slip and get worse as it wears.  Making for no fun while on the street.  You can't "play" like you can with a real aggressive street clutch.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.   Just ain't happening with a race car clutch on the street.  Drive it like an ol man...or drive it like you're on the track. No in-between.  If you want to "play", you have to crank the base way up to turn it into a street clutch.   Then it is like any other stiff street clutch.  It will still get grabby with heat.  So it's back to a real stiff pedal and organic disc.  They are now building twin disc's to get the surface area to grab an organic disc without being a 3200# pedal.



I agree Chris, typical bracket racing with a stick is tough.  If I tried to get back into normal weekend no box racing, it would be tough to go lots of rounds.  The kids these days are tough and they have their cars set up to be hard to beat.  It has changed a lot in the last 10-12 yrs.   I'm not getting younger, cutting consistent .01 lights isn't getting easier.  In our stick group, we are all in the same boat, with the same issues.  The playing field is more even.

Yes, everyone things their old painted toploader is worth $1K.  Ugh.  I used to buy them for $100(or less).  That was 20 yrs ago.

[cjshaker]

I can use the extra time to be watching my opponent and making strategy decisions on the way down. 

Or eat a sandwich, or drink a cup of java, or wave at the crowd while going down the track, or....

Sorry Chris, just having some fun..lol  Yes, with all the options today, the lines get blurred somewhere in there. I was just pointing out some of the high end options available today. I don't think anybody here is in it for the money, so to me it's about the fun. If I could go a few rounds against some automatics, then I consider that a success. Besides, I think a lot of races are won or lost on reaction time.

And I've said this before; anyone who thinks autos are more reliable....spend a week doing Drag Week. Automatics and roller lifters/rockers are by far the vast majority of breakage. I've watched quite a few guys do 2-3+ rebuilds on their autos during the 5 day event. The heat just kills them, then they fail on the track.

[Falcon67]

LOL, stick car going rounds confuses everybody.   

I would not say any particular item is reliable or not when we are beating on these things.  I have trashed my autos - and blown clutches on the way home.  I burnt/broke so many clutches and related parts in the early days that at 19 I had a personal account at Fort Worth Brake & Clutch.  Somethings going to break and either way, things gotta come apart.  One clear advantage of a manual is that you can usually pull it without dropping the headers.  Got me on that one!

Last stick car we had was our old 84 Mustang 4 cylinder.  Great little car, could drive it almost all day and only use the clutch for backing up.  Yes, if you hit the right spot you can "California Stop", pop into 1st and take off.  After a while of gear change by RPM, it becomes 2nd nature. 

[fekbmax]

We ran a crash box top loader for 3 seasons behind a 466 BBF (lima) in a 8.90et 76 mustang 2 super gas car. Of course there was some maintenance and replacing the worn out cut down dog rings but other than that it held up just fine until we twisted the output shaft a good 1/2" . But what do you expect. Went to a lenco when we built the top sportsman probe, then the 2006 mustang and 598 BBF with trick-flo A460 heads and the cast sheet metal style tunnel ram. Checking the clutch pack pressure's is a simple task and easy adjustment as well. Lenco's are one of the easiest tranny's to work on and once you get them set they are pretty trouble free besides regular maintenance.  They do take a little power though,  about as much as a C6. We used for a brief time both manual and RPM air shift but soon as we started running more quick 8 and quick 16 the levers went back in. Good times.. I'm seriously considering a lenco or a jeffco for my car..