Author Topic: I Need to Tame a Cat  (Read 1226 times)

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jayb

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Re: I Need to Tame a Cat
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2019, 09:06:38 PM »
I will make a version of my heads that will fit a shock tower car, and should have a 3D printed model of them to show at the FERR, but they will have the same intake port as the first set.  Pretty much designed for high horsepower applications only, the other guys are correct that at least for this application, my heads are probably not a good fit.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Falcon67

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Re: I Need to Tame a Cat
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2019, 08:54:23 AM »
Falcon- If you are not recommending the O.P. use pump 93, what are you suggesting? I see no reason it won't run OK on pump gas. I have run it in mine with no ill effects and have been using it in my daily for 3+yrs. My daily, way off topic, is a 4.6 Crown Vic. I use Shell fuel exclusively. When I have pulled the plugs a few times, they are always clean and the tops of the pistons that I can see are also very clean. This is efi, though and I run a 4.10 gear. Maybe that helps, maybe not.

I'm just saying that I would not count on 93 for saving my street engine.  Design for lower - 91 at most.  EFI is typically cleaner than a carb and my carbs are jetting usually a bit fat for racing so I expect more "grunge".  Just saying that the pump fuel here with 10% ethanol is pretty much junk.  To clean up the 351C in the Falcon, I run $9.50/gallon VP.  Worth it not to have to deal with any combustion issues.  If it was a street car, that'd be different.  And it wouldn't be running 10.5:1.  A previous open chamber 4V ran fine on 91 at 9.3:1 and pushed the car to high 12s on the strip.  It's all in the tuneup. 

"I use Shell fuel exclusively. "  I fill up at Conoco but everything in every station here - no name, Shell, Sunoco, Conoco - all come from the West-T-Go mix plant.  Same trucks, just a different blend.  All comes out of the same big white tanks in Tye Texas.  The only thing I see different is Flying J which runs their own tankers.  Pump fuel is pump fuel, buy on price.

e philpott

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Re: I Need to Tame a Cat
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2019, 11:00:36 AM »
VP Racing sells a fuel additive called Madditive that can add up 80 full octane points which is like turning 92 octane into 100 , my brother has been racing a SBF 12.5 comp. with pump gas and VP Racing's Madditive for over 5 years and works like a champ , one 12 ounces bottle treats 20 gallons

67428GT500

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Re: I Need to Tame a Cat
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2019, 08:09:10 AM »
Did anyone actually read the OP's post, or just jump on at the end? He has an X code 390. 2bbl. No mention of building a higHP build. Simply dealing with 10.5 compression which is fine for street use with a stock 390. The local 93 here in NE texas isn't loaded with toluene  as stated. If you're on the right coastal states or the NE states you probably get 91 at the pump.  I would highly recommend getting rid of points and go to the pertronix ignition. Weak ignition is problematic for any engine. If it seized it's likely you're going to be boring your block anyway. So dropping compression will allow you different fuel choices. I'm assuming your intent is more of a stock restoration Vs. a performace build.
'Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you will always long to return.'

plovett

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Re: I Need to Tame a Cat
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2019, 08:30:08 AM »
My point is that the difference between 9.5:1 and 10.5:1 on a mild build is not huge.  We're talking 3-4% for a whole point of compression.  So maybe 15 hp.  Not worth the risk of detonation, in my opinion.  Also, I believe it is better to have some more room in terms of ignition timing, rather than higher compression.  A high compression engine with retarded timing is not going to run as good as a lower compression engine with aggressive ignition timing, in my opinion.

paulie

Falcon67

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Re: I Need to Tame a Cat
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2019, 09:23:24 AM »
Similar point - with the fuel available in Texas 10.5:1 without a huge cam and/or retarded timing isn't going to work.  I know, I have a 351 with a pretty good size hydro roller and if I don't mix fuel it peppers the plugs.  Consistently.  Cranking compression is 165 in that motor.  And yea, 93 is sooty - look inside your tail pipes.  After running on it a couple of years and doing a tear down, I won't have pump fuel in my motors anymore - except for the trucks and the daily that are engineered to use base fuel.  LOL, pump fuel it good for putt-putt and the mower.  If you want to add fuel injection with timing control and detonation sensors then you could control things as needed to run higher compression. 

Also, for ignition I'd look for a multi-strike unit that multi-fires below 3000.  Not Pertronics.  Update or install a good box, keep the points. 

Joe-JDC

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Re: I Need to Tame a Cat
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2019, 10:26:06 AM »
I haven't read all of Jay's thread, but with the 2.300" intake valve that he was discussing, it would take a large bore to accommodate.
When I measured the combustion chamber on Jay's new head, it measured a full 4.250" wide, so it needs to go on a 427 block for sure.  Joe-JDC
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jayb

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Re: I Need to Tame a Cat
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2019, 10:46:13 AM »
The chamber size is actually a machining option; the casting is designed so it will fit down to a 4.05" bore if the chamber is machined to a smaller size.  A smaller intake valve would be required to fit that bore though.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Joe-JDC

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Re: I Need to Tame a Cat
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2019, 11:31:27 AM »
That is good to know, thanks for the update.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

WerbyFord

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Re: I Need to Tame a Cat
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2019, 01:40:59 PM »
I inherited a 1968 Cougar XR7 with a 390 2-barrel.  The car was in storage for quite a while, and the engine was seized.  The VIN says it has an "X" code engine with 10.5:1 compression ratio and requires Premium fuel.  My research showed that Premium fuel in 1968 was 100 octane.  This is not practical for me.  I would like to rebuild it to run 93 octane pump gas.  So the question is: What is the best way to do this?  I assumed different pistons would be in order but I am also wondering about the cam, rods, crank, etc.  I read somewhere (forget where) that 9.6:1 compression is a good fit for this.  The engine is completely torn down, so all options are on the table.  Any advice would be appreciated, and part numbers would be awesome.
P.S. The heads are C8AE-H.

Likely you have C8AE-H heads?
And that 10.5cr "2v premium fuel" should be with flattop pistons, valve reliefs only.

The 1961-63 390-4v pistons with their shallow dish would give you about 9.7 CR with those heads. TRW L-2291F etc forged versions come pretty cheap, and forged can run a little more CR so 9.7 would be fine on 93 octane, even ok on 87 octane if you keep it clean & don't overjet.

The 390-2v FoMoCo pistons have a dish you could use as a salad bowl and will give about 9.0-9.2 CR. Theyre cast, and I've seen a lot of them punched through, which seems odd with the CR that low. Maybe the dish is so deep it weakens the piston. Much less forgiving than the early 61-63 TRW forged ones above.

The cam in there is 192-199-111 LSA and is fine if your goal is not to add power. We used to get 17mpg with that cam in a big C-6 Galaxie.
Depends on your goals. If the cam/lifters are good it saves you breaking in a cam.
If not, the Comp 252H is a 206-206-110 cam, about like the early 390gt cam, or the Melling "RV" cam is 204-214-112 which is about like the 428CJ cam. The Edel Performer (NOT RPM) is 194-204-112? which is about like the 66-up 390-410-428 4bbl vanilla cam.

I don't know why any big block EVER came with a 2bbl!
Yes, get a 4bbl intake, even a stock 66-up iron or Edel Performer. The 428pi alum intake also works well with that stock cam or the ones I mentioned.

All that and keep the CR about 9.5 & you're fine.

That engine can get away with 10.5 CR partly because of the 2bbl- the cylinders just cant fill, not enough carb, so it's more forgiving. Slap a 4bbl on there & it will spark knock like crazy, BTDT. It's too high, unless you run a monster cam which then needs headers, way better heads, etc.

Joey120373

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Re: I Need to Tame a Cat
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2019, 07:48:16 PM »
One point I’ll bring up, cause I haven’t seen it ( or I missed it )
Putting a good set of aluminum heads on will make it more friendly to higher compression without changing anything else.

However, as was pointed out, if the engine is seized it will probably need an overbite and new pistons anyway. But, having to rebuild the stock heads with new hardened seats starts getting pretty pricey.
So if you spend a little extra on a good set of aluminum heads, BBM, FElony, Trick flow, Edelbrock etc.
It’s a win win win, you can run higher compression, get more power and shave some weight.

Of course if you are wanting to leave it mostly stock, then the factory heads and a good cam will run just fine, and still make great power.

67428GT500

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Re: I Need to Tame a Cat
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2019, 04:26:00 AM »
No argument on the points made. However, the post seems he wants to change compression, yet keep it stock externally. I think some jumped it without reading the OP's question.  I run 10.75 on pump 93. I do tend to run a bit of 110 during the summer as a mix.

                                                                                            -Keith
'Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you will always long to return.'