Author Topic: Guess my horsepower  (Read 19056 times)

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My427stang

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #75 on: March 28, 2019, 06:41:31 AM »
As a crude generality a dual plane intake will "want" a larger carb than a single plane intake.  Viewed as a single event (no such thing in reality), an intake runner demand will only "see" two barrels of the carb on a dual plane while it "sees" all four barrels on the connected plenum of a single plane.  An open spacer connects the two sides and gives the active runner a view of both sides of the carb at the same time it adds plenum volume.  It also helps even the air/fuel ratio from side to side.  This is assuming that the engine wants an even air/fuel ratio and that it wants the added volume and that it wants the added carb area....you get the idea.

You can spend lots of time expounding theories on carb spacers, but it usually far better to just clip them on a try them.  Things like an air/fuel ratio variance, vacuum in the intake at WOT (1.5 ain't really all that bad...put a 600 on it and it would probably be over 2.5), and a different than expected peak power or TQ RPM can clue you in that an opportunity for improvement exists.  But it does not mean that anything is really there - or that chasing it is worth the cost in power at other points in the power band for a given application.

I am with you lock stock and barrel.  However after bolting them on,  I would say that the spacer results are saying something.  Assuming there really is a problem and it isn't common with the smoothing calculation being off, the 4 hole under the carb with another spacer sorta working best lets me back into two things. Of course this is all opinion, and I can't say I ever looked at "unsmoothed" or "smoothed" data, or known which I was looking at, so maybe there is no issue at all and this is a display issue. However,

1 - The engine showed it wanted a little more plenum (not surprising at 600 hp and that RPM) Letting it pulse and breathe across both sides should dampen things a little or at least move the violence to a different RPM.  Not only from a plenum volume to let it breathe deep, but also from a dampening ability

2 - Something was screwing with the boosters that was corrected with the 4 hole.  It could be a top problem or a bottom problem.  If it was a harmonic of valve events or a reversion issue due to some other vale timing voodoo, the combination of plenum and a longer "carb throat" due to the 4 hole could have helped the booster by smoothing the flow beneath it. Would have been interesting to try an old 2 inch 4 hole there to see.  It also could have been a sloppy 850 venturi combined with it, it also could have been emulsion without quite enough air or slightly too small an HSAB or a fudged one as Blair said.  If the booster is going "solid fuel" for any reason (an overstatement), it would cycle too.  Which a more stable flow from the 4 hole may slightly allow the depression under the booster to stabilize a little

I don't mind the 850 design although they can be fussy, If I noticed it myself, big IF, I likely would have started with cleaning the HSAB gently, just to see if one was gunky.  However, I tend to blame harmonics, as I eluded to before an 11 inch runner tunes about 7000 rpm using Ramchargers theory.  This is riding the harmonics NOT airflow. I don't know the exact measurements of the port, but it's in the ballpark of being right on the edge of something at the RPM the data showed

Again, not being a dyno guy, Jay's update threw me off game a little because I am not sure I have ever known when I was looking at smoothed or unsmoothed data and how much of a smoothing factor most guys use.  However, if it is an issue, my gut says maybe try a little carb checking, if not, it's a resonance issue of some sort
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Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #76 on: March 28, 2019, 08:15:08 AM »
I just went out and looked in the intake with a LED flashlight. It is a new manifold and there is zero evidence of reversion. As far as I could see (dual plane makes it tough) it was all bright aluminum. No sign of discolorization. I rebuilt the carb myself before the dyno run and the air bleeds were clean as a whistle. Ill go over it carefully again, but given it being it non cross bolted block, I am pretty content to sit at 600hp. Now if I find ET variations on the top end, I will definately step up to a more tuneable race oriented carb to see if it makes a difference. My real fear is, last year I loaned the carb to a coworker while I wasn't using it to dyno his 383 scrub motor and maybe some of the bowturd bad Karma is messing up how the carb works! :o

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #77 on: March 28, 2019, 08:24:44 AM »
One last thing. My Holley 850 double pumper (#4781, non tuneable air bleeds) had the choke horn milled off. Could that be affecting the signal the high speed air bleeds see on the primary side? Jim

cjshaker

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2019, 11:37:16 AM »
Interesting info on the "smoothing orders". I often wondered why your (Jay) dyno graphs always looked a little choppy, at least compared to others. Now I know why.

While most people wouldn't even give it any thought, this is what makes a sharp carburetor guy worth his weight in gold. As long as it didn't get into the dangerous zone of being lean, none of this would make a difference in bracket style racing. Ok, maybe a very small difference in consistency, but hardly worth the hundreds and hundreds of dollars it would cost to have a 'guru' carb guy work out the issues. But things like this can be the difference between 1st and 2nd place in heads-up, close competition racing. Interesting stuff.

I don't think a data race-pak would even show the small variances shown and described here, so only access to a dyno, and repeated testing, would. Or years of track testing.

Just out of curiosity, is the carb all stock, as far as calibration?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 11:39:06 AM by cjshaker »
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CaptCobrajet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2019, 01:03:00 PM »
I don't think it is a harmonic problem.  I don't think it will see a resonant frequency that many times through a fairly short rpm band.  I think it would only come once, or maybe twice by 6000 rpm, just based on things I have seen before.  I also think you won't see the valve harmonic pulsing the booster very much in a dual plane manifold.  None of the runners are aimed at the carb, and the low side is a looong way from the carb.

I have seen this exact same thing from "old" gasoline.  Jim, you might want to verify the age of that drum of gas you bought.  It is odd that it liked more than 33° timing, which makes me wonder some more about that gas.

Too late now, but fuel pressure and/or float level could also do that.  Whether you turn it more or not, and regardless of any power gain, it is better on the engine to smooth out the issue.  Smoothing the graph doesn't do a thing for the condition the engine sees, lol.

If you want to send me that carb sometime when I have a similar victim on the dyno, I would be glad to see if it is the carb, and if I can correct the surge.  Guessing I can fix it from the info, if it isn't just old fuel.......
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 01:05:07 PM by CaptCobrajet »
Blair Patrick

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2019, 02:04:23 PM »
I just bought the barrel of VP110 and the guy claimed it was only 2 weeks old. I bought it from a large distributor here in the twin cities.

jayb

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2019, 02:11:28 PM »
We also did set the float levels before running, and the dyno fuel pressure is set at 6 psi.  Dyno fuel pump is a big Magnaflow.

Blair, your fuel comment reminded me of the one pull where I just got started revving up the engine and it coughed and spit, then stopped suddenly.  I had forgotten to turn the dyno fuel pump on, and the engine only ran long enough to run the fuel out of the bowls.  Right when it shut off I looked over at Jim; I thought he was having a heart attack LOL!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 02:14:40 PM by jayb »
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Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2019, 02:37:25 PM »
You think you were in trouble telling your wife about the light pole. I might have been scared to go home and tell my wife if the motor blew on the dyno!. I just got off the phone with VP fuels also and they confirmed by the date on my barrel that it was no more than a month old. I personally broke the seal on it also. As long as it is not going to hurt the motor or make my ET's fluctuate, I am ok with where we are. In a way it is kind of cool knowing there might be more than 600 with a some small changes. Jim

FElony

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2019, 02:44:30 PM »
You think you were in trouble telling your wife about the light pole. I might have been scared to go home and tell my wife if the motor blew on the dyno!. I just got off the phone with VP fuels also and they confirmed by the date on my barrel that it was no more than a month old. I personally broke the seal on it also. As long as it is not going to hurt the motor or make my ET's fluctuate, I am ok with where we are. In a way it is kind of cool knowing there might be more than 600 with a some small changes. Jim

All koolness here. What Bracket class?

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2019, 04:07:06 PM »
I just went out and found my "purple" VP110 is brown. I called VP and they said they had an issue with some fuel a time back, but it still should be good. He also said they will replace my barrel for me just in case. Sooo, maybe the fuel could be suspect. Felony, I am a footbrake racer so fast bracket, no electronics. I'm expecting the car to run between 11.70 and 11.00. It doesnt matter so much as long as its consistent.

FElony

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2019, 04:28:29 PM »
  It doesnt matter so much as long as its consistent.

This.


57 lima bean

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2019, 04:54:19 PM »
I am a footbrake racer so fast bracket, no electronics.
   

        I really like this.

shady

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WerbyFord

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2019, 10:21:18 PM »
In one of our shoulda-coulda-woulda thread on the old fordfe.com, (Ken maybe?) commented that "Ford was always late to the party" re eg the 428cj & even 390gt. In that spirit, here is the Gonkulator's late to the party Gonk:

Spacers as used (we didn't know this before the results came out)
Torq 550 at 5000
Powr 597 at 6300

No spacers
Torq 553 at 4900
Powr 589 at 6300
This would have been my guess, not knowing about the spacer combos. Not really that different.

I did throw a big 1150 dominator on top (airflow only, of course other stuff would change too) & got only 9hp more.
So with the 1" open spacer, I don't know how much the smallish carb is really hurting it. More likely as noted the kind of non-responsive nature of the old 850 Holley.

For more fun, I swapped on a set of box-stock Edelbrock heads on there.for
Torq 515 at 4900 (down 35)
Powr 535 at 6300 (down 62)
As of the late 1990s these were the "high dollar" heads for the FE. We have come a long way.

6667fan

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #89 on: April 03, 2019, 11:24:07 AM »
True!
JB
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