Author Topic: Guess my horsepower  (Read 19049 times)

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Jim Comet

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Guess my horsepower
« on: March 07, 2019, 07:37:04 AM »
Hey everyone, I had Blair build a 416 for me and Jay has agreed to dyno it, hopefully in a couple of weeks. While I don't have any swag to offer, I thought it might be interesting to try and guess what this baby stroker will make for power. I am super excited to get this back and have my Comet running after a 12 year hiatus. Jim
4.080 bore
3.98 stroke RPM steel crank with BBC journals
6.480 Molnar H beam rods.
ATI damper.
CP flat top pistons; 12.8 to 1 compression.
Blairs custom solid baby roller cam:I know it has 540 int lift, .500 ex lift, and 264@050 intake dur and 270@050 exh dur with 112 lobe sep. Rockers are 1.85 intake and 1.76 exhaust. Kind of an odd deal but with the strong exhaust port this should work (fingers crossed).
Blairs Pro Port heads. I think 315 intake cfm and 230 exhaust. 54cc chambers.
My homade headers. 12" long 1 7/8 pipe the going to 2 inch. primary length is about 34 inches into 3 inch merge collectors.
Blair ported Edelbrock RPM dual plane intake
850 double pumper carb.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 10:18:18 AM by Jim Comet »

Heo

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2019, 07:56:25 AM »
519



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

chilly460

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2019, 08:41:41 AM »
615hp @ 6800rpm

shady

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2019, 09:05:01 AM »
628 @6400
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
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e philpott

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2019, 10:46:50 AM »
is the 540 intake lift with the 1.85 ratio rocker or with 1.76 ratio ?
618 HP at 7000 RPM my swag

mbrunson427

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2019, 11:29:36 AM »
I'll guess 575 at 6300
Mike Brunson
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Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2019, 11:44:50 AM »
540 intake number is with the 1.85 rocker.

e philpott

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2019, 12:00:09 PM »
540 intake number is with the 1.85 rocker.

that is a little odd ball but I bet it works great

HarleyJack17

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2019, 12:08:37 PM »
597 @ 5850

Stangman

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2019, 12:10:30 PM »
I’ll throw my hat in the ring
608 @ 6750
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 07:00:22 PM by Stangman »

fryedaddy

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2019, 01:08:01 PM »
591 at 6750
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 06:41:53 PM by fryedaddy »
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

1968galaxie

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2019, 01:43:29 PM »
1.5hp/cu inch should be attainable for sure.

625 hp

Cheers



machoneman

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2019, 02:53:10 PM »
What....?

No swag?

Jeesh!

579 hp
Bob Maag

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2019, 02:55:24 PM »
Those heads over six hundred but how much.
606 hp somewhere over the rainbow.....
Mikko

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2019, 03:46:18 PM »
Me and you are gonna be wrestling around Machoneman. ;) 8)

mike7570

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2019, 04:42:07 PM »
620

machoneman

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2019, 06:41:59 PM »
Hah! Didn't see your guess. I'll make mine....

579.5

LOL

Me and you are gonna be wrestling around Machoneman. ;) 8)

Bob Maag

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2019, 09:02:23 PM »
A little background, I started with just wanting Blairs Pro Port heads for my 390. I was then going to use the same cam as he used in his dueling 390's (which made 579hp) on my freshend short block. After taking my short block apart I started second guessing the block integrity and factory rods at that power level. I then talked to Blair and decided to go with a new block and the internals from post #1. I figured with him doing the assembly, 20 more cubic inches, a bigger solid roller cam and 850cfm carb I should be good for 600hp. No matter where the power numbers end up, I am sure it will be faster than my old home built 390 that ran low 12's.  More importantly it will be much more bullet proof. I didn't go the 445 route because of the limited tire room on my 66 Comet. Hopefully I can and will be consistent as this is a footbrake bracket car. Jim

70tp

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2019, 09:57:44 PM »
570

Nightmist66

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2019, 11:01:04 PM »
Can't wait to see the results. Looking at the header flange, you went with the race pro port? Are the heads angle milled? Are the collectors from REF? Did the block get cross bolted? My heads also have 54cc chambers. I went with street pro ports. Other than a couple more cubes, the build is very close to mine.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 11:06:21 PM by Nightmist66 »
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2019, 11:36:33 PM »
This may sound uninformed but I believe they aret the steet Pro Port. They are however his latest design which changed in the last couple of years. The collectors are Ebay Items which I may decide to change in the future depending on results. The block is not cross bolted but the #2 and #4 mains are drilled deeper and I am using the older ARP studs whick have about 1/4 inch more thead into the block. Blair thinks that with the smaller jounal, ATI dampner and his other details, this short block should be ok to 7000+ rpm. Jim

Nightmist66

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2019, 12:11:57 AM »
If the exhaust port is mostly round and raised, it's the race port, if it's squareish, it's the street for shock tower cars. I decided to cross bolt mine for extra insurance. Custom 4140 steel cnc'd caps press fit to block. I may do a thread at some point if anybody still cares about 390's. Okay, I'll shut up about my junk now. Good luck with yours.
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2019, 10:09:14 AM »
One other thing about block strength. I had an older set of ARP main studs (1996ish) and the threaded portion that goes into the block has about a 1/4 inch more threads than what the newer ones now being sold by ARP have. Blair liked that they have more thread engagement for strength.

machoneman

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2019, 10:56:34 AM »
Nice but methinks maybe not so much help.

Keep in mind that Ford's engineers added cross-bolts to what was essentially the identical block architecture (390 through 427) over the years for a reason. That and as the cross-bolt size is substantially smaller than main bolt size, they must have thought that was still strong enough to tighten the lower end and prevent block cracking. The BBM website explains this well, even though their blocks seem to be near unobtainable. http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/1408-reproduction-fe-series-427-crossbolt-blockbuster/


One other thing about block strength. I had an older set of ARP main studs (1996ish) and the threaded portion that goes into the block has about a 1/4 inch more threads than what the newer ones now being sold by ARP have. Blair liked that they have more thread engagement for strength.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 11:06:49 AM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2019, 04:41:57 PM »
Well, we made 687 power at 6500 and 630 torque at 4800 yesterday at Bischoff's with a 12:1, 504 cuber.  It has heads like Jared's.  Jim, Jared, and the one we ran yesterday all have the same "street" intake port.  Stock Medium riser port location, with the roof slightly raised at the flange.  Jim has the "race" exhaust port, where these others are a stock exit location.  I changed ratios on the rockers, because the lift at the valve was not checking to spec.  The baby roller is only .525 lift, so only .515 after lash.  T&D rockers are the only ones that will check correct with the cam card. All others need more ratio to get there.  Having only .500-ish lift, I don't want to give up anything to "light checking" rockers.  Both Jim's, and the one I just ran have rockers that correct the problem.  I got a little more on Jim's so it has about .530 after lash on the intake.

Those heads flow almost 320 at .500 on the intake, and about 230 on the exhaust at .500.  It will peak closer to 7000 with the 3.98 crank.  Yesterday's unit had a 4.250 crank and more inches, so peak happened sooner.  This bigger engine had 20-25 hp left on the table in terms of a peak number, but it is a street engine, and the carb spacer I used will make it a little more responsive in the middle.  Horsepower per cube will go up when using a better head, more compression, and less stroke.....have fun speculating, fellers.  I like this HP guess game.

It will be interesting to see the results on Jim's piece.  A little more compression, and a better exhaust port, higher peak point, but less inches.  I don't like popcorn, so I'm gonna sit back and eat peanuts and spectate!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 05:06:20 PM by CaptCobrajet »
Blair Patrick

fryedaddy

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2019, 06:45:18 PM »
yes this is a fun game.i hope its here to stay.love guessing on the different combos.i will admit i changed my rpm after reading Blair's reply.
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

TomP

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2019, 06:59:52 PM »
12.8 compression! I guess if you have the octane available, why not.
 Kind of odd having that low lift, is there any reason for that not being well over .600?

This sounds like a real stout piece and i'm sure it ought to go better than 12's in a LTD stretch limo.
 I will say 616hp... like a Cammer made.

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2019, 07:22:20 PM »
Yes Mr. Tom.  I created the "baby roller" for several reasons.  First, the lower lift does not screw up the geometry on the OE style rockers.  Second, it doesn't require going to the paired shaft T&D, but you can still get all of the benefits of a solid roller without pulling the studs out of the heads.  If the heads are good, it'll make power at .525 lift.  The SPP still flows more at .600-.700, and there is more power there.  We've seen 800 hp with the stock location exhaust with .700 lift and compression, and 925 hp with the SPP with raised exhaust, compression, .800 lift, and a dry sump..... but you could drive this baby roller coast to coast, race it for 24 hours, or drag race it for YEARS, without durability issues in the guides, springs, or valvetrain.  Plus, it won't wear a lobe off after it sits all winter!  It is intended for better than average performance, and better than average reliability.
Blair Patrick

fryedaddy

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2019, 08:01:00 PM »
Yes Mr. Tom.  I created the "baby roller" for several reasons.  First, the lower lift does not screw up the geometry on the OE style rockers.  Second, it doesn't require going to the paired shaft T&D, but you can still get all of the benefits of a solid roller without pulling the studs out of the heads.  If the heads are good, it'll make power at .525 lift.  The SPP still flows more at .600-.700, and there is more power there.  We've seen 800 hp with the stock location exhaust with .700 lift and compression, and 925 hp with the SPP with raised exhaust, compression, .800 lift, and a dry sump..... but you could drive this baby roller coast to coast, race it for 24 hours, or drag race it for YEARS, without durability issues in the guides, springs, or valvetrain.  Plus, it won't wear a lobe off after it sits all winter!  It is intended for better than average performance, and better than average reliability.
does this baby roller work good in your cobra-jets and how much hp and rpm can you get out of this cam in a 428
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2019, 08:30:44 PM »
All depends on what the goals are, and what the combo is.  "Cobra Jets" is a pretty broad term.  Lots of ways to cook 'em.
Blair Patrick

6667fan

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2019, 10:07:20 PM »
567 hp @6700
JB
JB


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482 cid 636/619.
Tunnel Wedge, Survival EMC CNC heads, Lykins Custom Hydraulic Roller, Ram adjustable clutch, Jerico 4-spd, Strange third member with Detroit Locker, 35 spline axles, 4.86
10.68@125.71 1.56 60’

57 lima bean

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2019, 02:17:02 PM »
I say 543 with lock washers being a Mercury combo.

Joey120373

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2019, 09:53:11 AM »
586 HP @ 7100

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2019, 03:01:40 PM »
Next Tuesday is the day.

70bosscat

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2019, 03:09:30 PM »
628 @7200  :)

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2019, 09:43:18 PM »
Keep me posted Mr. Jim.  I will be interested in the goings-on!
Blair Patrick

KMcCullah

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2019, 07:31:52 AM »
609@6600. I'm wondering how the new exhaust port compares to Colverts.
Kevin McCullah


machoneman

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2019, 08:37:46 AM »
Next Tuesday is the day.

Great. Here's my Paypal account number (123456789) so pay me now!

LOL!
Bob Maag

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2019, 04:53:53 PM »
508 HP


mn67

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2019, 05:18:02 PM »
515
1971 Maverick Grabber

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2019, 05:24:31 PM »
I bought a barrel of VP110 today. Does anyone know the differences performance wise between Turbo Blue 110, Sunoco standard 110 and VP110. I was told to check the specific gravity. The Turbo Blue was .743 the Sunoco was .729 and the VP was .705. I was told the higher the specific gravity the richer it would run using the same jet so I went with the VP with the lowest specific gravity thinking it would be more efficient. I am sure it will work fine. Does anyone have experience with switching between brands (with different specific gravity and same octane) and jetting requirements changing?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 09:31:52 PM by Jim Comet »

Nightmist66

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2019, 07:20:53 PM »
634hp @ 6900
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2019, 10:22:09 PM »
Next Tuesday is the day.
     
   

           Waiting for the Meuller report.

shady

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2019, 08:31:08 AM »
My guess is there in no corrosion & no dirt in the oil filter. However that doesn't mean the dyno operator is exonerated.
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
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Joey120373

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2019, 04:58:18 PM »
Today is the day right?

Good luck! Hope everything goes as planned and you not only make a bunch of HP.

thatdarncat

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2019, 06:26:40 PM »
Today was the day. I know Jay is planning on putting up a post on the results later, so keep watching. Everything went fine.

Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
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jayb

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2019, 07:24:30 PM »
Dyno day for Jim's 416 inch FE was today; here are the results from the best pull:

550.7 lb-ft @ 5000 RPM
601.0 HP @ 6400 RPM

A graph of the best pull is shown below:




Jim and I started with the engine about 8:30 this morning, and after a minor struggle getting his headers to fit the engine mounts on the dyno we had everything hooked up and ready to go by noon.  Before attaching the left side header, I took the opportunity to check the calibration of the torque sensor on the dyno.  I hadn't done this for several years, because every time I'd done it the calibration was right on.  This time was no exception; there is almost zero error in the dyno's torque reading.  I will put up a second post about the calibration process, so that people can see what is involved.  Also, for anyone interested, the STP correction factor for today's weather in the dyno cell was 4.0%.

After finishing up the left side header installation we ran into one more issue, and that was that the drain plugs for the water jacket on each side of the block had not been installed.  Naturally, we didn't discover this until I was filling the engine with water  ::)  After addressing that issue we checked for fuel leaks and set the initial timing, and then started the engine.  The engine ran great right from the start.  Jim had instructions from Blair to run the engine at 3000-4000 RPM for the first 25 minutes to break everything in, and then start making some lower RPM pulls to make sure the engine ran consistently before doing any higher RPM pulls.  We did all that with no issues.  The original timing setup per Blair's recommendation was 33 degrees total in the locked distributor.  We had a 1" open spacer, 1" 4 hole spacer, and 1" Super Sucker spacer to try out, in various combinations.  Original jetting for the 850 double pumper was 84/84 with blocked power valves, also per Blair's recommendations.

After the initial 25 minute run-in we let the engine cool for about 15 minutes, then did a cruise test, and finally started with some lower speed pulls, 3000 to 5000 RPM.  Right away the pulls were perfectly repeatable, but we were getting A/F numbers in the high 13s, so we started jetting up.  What we discovered along the way during the pulls was that this engine wanted to run on the lean side; we kept seeing 13+ for the A/F numbers, with jetting all the way up to 88/90.  Finally we overkilled it and went to 93/96 jets.  At that level the A/F numbers came into line nicely at around 12.7:1, but the power was down 10-12 HP across the entire RPM range.  We went back to 90/90 jets and ran the final pulls with that combination. 

We made a total of 18 dyno pulls on the engine.  The last half dozen or so were for testing spacers.  The best combination turned out to be the 4 hole spacer right under the carb, and then the open spacer under that.  We tried the Super Sucker on top of the open spacer and it wasn't quite as good, but the difference was only about 1 average HP.  We also tried the Super Sucker by itself, and it was down about 2 HP on average from the combination of the 4 hole and open spacers.  Another example of how you just can't tell how these things are going to work on a given engine until you can actually test them.

At the end of the day we tried to bump the timing up to 35 degrees, and this also picked up a little power, but not very much, only a couple HP on average through the pull. 

The engine sounded really good through the whole process.  We made several pulls up to 6800 RPM with no hint of problems, and were going to make one pull to 7100 or so but we didn't end up doing that, just forgot about it until the engine was partially disconnected from the dyno.  Overall this was a very successful day, and Jim has a really strong bracket engine that ought to run well for years.  The engine looks good on the dyno (especially those kickass valve covers  ;D ), and I'm looking forward to seeing pictures of it in the car.


« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 07:49:43 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

plovett

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2019, 07:36:18 PM »
601 hp at 6400 rpm out of a 416?  Holygoodlord.  That is impressive.

JMO,

paulie

chilly460

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2019, 09:03:16 PM »
Very solid numbers, compares well peak to peak with some 427 strokers.  I will say hp peak rpm seems low to me, could it be the intake?  .

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2019, 09:24:43 PM »
Looks like a good day.  I notice in the graph that the carb is fussy.  It goes up, then goes flat.....then up again, then flat.  It does this four times through the range.  It is working on the fifth flat where the pull stopped.  I think it was getting ready to recover again, and gain a little more, then peak closer to 7000.  Notice the "steps" in the graph.  Appears it needs some emulsion work to smooth the fuel curve and the power curve would not have those dips.  It would be interesting to look at A/F and BSFC right in those dips versus before and after the dips.  I think the "peak" wasn't quite the peak.....

In the big scheme, I was glad to hear that y'all had a successful day!  Congrats Mr. Jim and Mr. Jay.
Blair Patrick

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2019, 10:04:16 PM »
Blair, here's some of the data that you asked for from the pull:




As far as making more power higher up, it sure didn't look like it would to me.  Here's a few more pulls, these all to 6800 RPM, where we tried different combinations.  It was a broad power curve up top, but it didn't look to me like it was going to pick up again.  Also note that the first plot is the one where we cranked the jetting way up, so it looks a little smoother but it is down on power from the others:










Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

57 lima bean

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2019, 10:14:34 PM »
Very solid numbers, compares well peak to peak with some 427 strokers.  I will say hp peak rpm seems low to me, could it be the intake?  .
   

    As a peanut gallery observer today and seeing what Jay has "in stock" I thought the same. Considering the size of the engine,I think the dual plane manifold complements this engine well.It does appear the carb.was close to its limit.

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2019, 10:26:47 PM »
I usually see peak from 6800 to 7000 with that stroke, cam, and intake manifold.  That carb is definitely struggling.  You would never hear that surge that is coming and going, but the dips in the power graph appear to relate to the bsfc and a/f swings.  It could just be dirty air bleeds, or some burrs in the emulsion circuit bleeds.....
Blair Patrick

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2019, 01:44:25 AM »
1.44 hp per CI. Not too shabby! And on a dual plane intake with a .540 lift cam?
This is why I don't guess on Blairs engines. I'd always be wrong, unless I just added a couple tenths per CI, just for the hell of it.

That engine should live a pretty easy life, given the lack of stress on the valvetrain. Should make for an enjoyable, trouble free combo.
Doug Smith


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'70 F-350 390
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'37 Ford Coupe

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2019, 07:02:38 AM »
Thank you Jay for a very good day yesterday. I really appreciate your help, patience and expertise. Thank you to Blair for building a stout motor. I am going to bolt it in my Comet as is and run it. I may look into getting a more race oriented carb in the future to see if than will help. Also, thank you to Kevin and Steve for hanging out and your advise. It means alot coming from you guys with real world experience. Jim

mbrunson427

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2019, 08:48:32 AM »
This was fun. About 15 hp more stout than I expected. I do see what Blair is talking about with the carb though......doesn't seem like there's ever enough dyno time. I wish there was some more data for under 5000 rpm because I suspect there's some pretty good torque there.
Mike Brunson
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jayb

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2019, 09:23:16 AM »
We actually ran pulls down to 3000 RPM, and peak torque was always at 4900-5000 RPM.  But torque was really good down low too, around 460 lb-ft at 3000 RPM, 500 lb-ft at 4000, etc.  This is a good race motor, but I think it would be a pretty good street motor too.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2019, 11:05:48 AM »
Yes, it is fun to see the guess game, and then the results.  I was curious yesterday as I got some play-by-play from Jim.  I have dynoed with Jay before......I knew they would get some good testing in.

That is a solid roller, but the hot lash is only .008.  it is tricky to set an accurate cold lash of .004, but I have a method that comes out pretty close when hot.  There won't be much "thrash from the lash" on that deal.  It would run fine on the street.  It only has .498 lift on the exhaust with those rockers.   I didn't spend any more of Jim's money bumping the exhaust rocker ratio because he has my higher end exhaust port anyway, but a little more lift would help it.  The Dove/Comp rockers showed me quite a bit of deflection. 

It would be fun to put a good .800 lift Super Stock cam and a worked single plane manifold on that engine, but I am afraid it would break the block.  It would make 750+ hp at 7500 rpm like that.  I don't think the 105 blocks can stand that much power.  What he has there will be reliable, and won't kill the bolt-on valvetrain with .530 and .498 lifts.  I started liking that combo more as I was putting it together.  We do so many long strokers these days........that shortblock does not give up much in efficiency at 4.08 x 3.98.  I am happy for Jim, and he is lucky to have Jay right there local to him.

Blair Patrick

My427stang

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2019, 11:41:54 AM »
I agree, something funky with the main circuit.  Can you label the charts above with the spacer combo associated with it? 

My hunch is a 4 hole softened whatever forces the booster was feeling.  I also think that each peak is an recovery of a trough, so you may gain more overall if you could clean up the troughs above 6100.

Maybe HSAB too small allowing fuel droplets then cleaning up?  Maybe emulsion like Blair said?  Maybe even something odd like a valve action harmonic reflecting into the plenum.

I think there is more, maybe not a lot, but more
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

fryedaddy

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2019, 01:21:29 PM »
i messed up. on Brents guess game i always guess and then add 10 more hp just to be safe.this time my first guess was 591 and i forgot to add 10 this time.i would have hit it right on the money if i had.that was the first time i forgot to add 10.the reason i add ten is you engine builders seem to always surprise us.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 01:24:31 PM by fryedaddy »
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

Barry_R

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2019, 02:05:08 PM »
If that is a traditional non-annular Holley 850 double pumper they are rather finicky on calibration in any case.  No waist in the venturi - plenty of airflow but not much for circuit sensitivity or refinement.  The 830 (or the HP900 which is pretty similar) are better carbs from a tunability standpoint even if they give up a bit of peak airflow/power capability.

Torque per cube at 1.32 is a nice solid number - should be a good strong engine and probably rip through the gears nicely.

cobracammer

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2019, 02:15:45 PM »
If I would guess 0 HP at 0 RPM's....seems logical ?

I want to say 575 at 6000 RPM's

Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

blykins

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2019, 02:42:51 PM »
If I would guess 0 HP at 0 RPM's....seems logical ?

I want to say 575 at 6000 RPM's

You're late to the game, homey.  Results are on last page. 
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Joe-JDC

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #63 on: March 27, 2019, 04:02:22 PM »
I would be curious as to the vacuum through out the pulls?  If the vacuum was more than .4-.5, then the carb was definitely too small.  Did you happen to take vacuum readings?  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

jayb

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2019, 04:17:22 PM »
Joe, vacuum peaked at 1.5 inches.  We talked about that during the dyno session, there was probably power to be had with a bigger carb.  That carb is definitely suspect.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

HarleyJack17

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2019, 04:32:48 PM »
Where is Drew when you need him! JK.
Nice motor, nice power, cool thread.  I got close on 597 but off on RPM's and surprised by the TQ.
Definitely some work went into the design/planning and seems it turned out pretty darn well. Rip some Chebbys a new a@@hole!
 
"Baby roller" is that like a cuddly alligator?  ;D


jayb

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2019, 04:55:20 PM »
I'm enjoying all the comments about the rocky curve, and I think a lot of them are right on the mark.  Now, take a look at the graph below, and tell me what you think of this:




Believe it or not, this is the same engine.  In fact, the curve is from exactly the same data as I posted a little earlier.  The difference is, the curve smoothing algorithm in the dyno software has been turned on.  This lowers the whole curve a little bit but smooths out the numbers, so that the discontinuities in the curve completely disappear. 

I have a lot of things to say about this, but primarily I think that the curve smoothing algorithm hides potential problems with the engine.  And almost every dyno operator uses it, because it makes the curve look better to the customer.  For this reason I NEVER run the curve smoothing option on my dyno.  Sometimes the curves look choppy, but I think this is telling you something.  Yesterday, while dynoing Jim's engine we noticed that jet changes were not really having the expected effect on the A/F numbers and the horsepower/torque curve.  Experience points to the carb, as quite a few folks here have pointed out.  But it would have been a challenge to see that, or really understand what was happening, with the curve smoothing turned on, because the torque and horsepower curves would have looked fine.

Now, one other thing to consider is that the dyno is an electrically noisy place, and electrical noise can mess up the signals from the dyno's tachometer output, and the torque sensor output.  This can also lead to discontinuities in the horsepower and torque curves.  However, I have dynoed enough really strong engines to know that when everything is right, those curves look very smooth, with only an occasional glitch, even when the curve smoothing algorithm is turned off. 

There are options for the curve smoothing, called first order, second order, and third order, referring to the mathematical formula used to modify the data.  Below are four dyno charts from one pull, the first with no smoothing, next with first order smoothing, next with second order, and finally third order:










The moral of the story is that it is important to understand the data that you are looking at, if you want to really see what's going on with your engine - Jay
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 04:58:28 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2019, 05:59:52 PM »
Is there any chance that the blocked off power valves caused any of the fluctuations. Or do they just enrich the same main circuit that the main jets do?

Barry_R

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2019, 06:12:51 PM »
Is there any chance that the blocked off power valves caused any of the fluctuations. Or do they just enrich the same main circuit that the main jets do?

That's not the problem.

We are all fixating on fuel bleeds/emulsions because the indicators are all pointing to a fuel mixture/delivery issue.  The bumpy power is matched by similar discontinuities in air/fuel ratio, BSFC, and fuel usage/consumption.  I guess its possible that we are seeing a reversion issue that is manifesting itself by farting around with the fuel demand.  Take a flashlight & look down into the intake runners.  If they look blackened - like an exhaust runner would be - we might have another clue.  In any case its a strong running piece.

Joey120373

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2019, 09:53:35 PM »
Jim, looks like you have a great runner there, congrats.
Too bad that the fuel issues kinda corked it up, and pulling 1.5 inches of vacuum was not helping.
Just to bad there wasn’t a bigger/better carb available to try, I’m guessing there is a decent amount of power still in that thing.

plovett

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2019, 10:04:35 PM »
If the carb was a restriction, might that have been found using tall open spacers?  It sounds like they tried a lot of different spacer combinations.  Just reread it and see there was only a 1" open spacer. 

paulie
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 10:06:12 PM by plovett »

Joey120373

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2019, 01:08:09 AM »
Quote
If the carb was a restriction, might that have been found using tall open spacers?  It sounds like they tried a lot of different spacer combinations.  Just reread it and see there was only a 1" open spacer.

Probably showing my ignorance here, but how would a larger carb spacer influence weather the carb was a restriction or not?
Taken to the extreme, slap a 600 cfm carb on that motor, I'm not seeing how it's ever not going to choke the airflow through the engine regardless of how big a spacer you put under it.
Or is it more subtle, where a carb that is close to big enough can benefit from a larger plenum area due to the larger area acting to slow or buffer down the pulses  seen by the carb?

Barry_R

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2019, 03:55:03 AM »
As a crude generality a dual plane intake will "want" a larger carb than a single plane intake.  Viewed as a single event (no such thing in reality), an intake runner demand will only "see" two barrels of the carb on a dual plane while it "sees" all four barrels on the connected plenum of a single plane.  An open spacer connects the two sides and gives the active runner a view of both sides of the carb at the same time it adds plenum volume.  It also helps even the air/fuel ratio from side to side.  This is assuming that the engine wants an even air/fuel ratio and that it wants the added volume and that it wants the added carb area....you get the idea.

You can spend lots of time expounding theories on carb spacers, but it usually far better to just clip them on a try them.  Things like an air/fuel ratio variance, vacuum in the intake at WOT (1.5 ain't really all that bad...put a 600 on it and it would probably be over 2.5), and a different than expected peak power or TQ RPM can clue you in that an opportunity for improvement exists.  But it does not mean that anything is really there - or that chasing it is worth the cost in power at other points in the power band for a given application.

plovett

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2019, 06:23:03 AM »
Quote
If the carb was a restriction, might that have been found using tall open spacers?  It sounds like they tried a lot of different spacer combinations.  Just reread it and see there was only a 1" open spacer.

Probably showing my ignorance here, but how would a larger carb spacer influence weather the carb was a restriction or not?
Taken to the extreme, slap a 600 cfm carb on that motor, I'm not seeing how it's ever not going to choke the airflow through the engine regardless of how big a spacer you put under it.
Or is it more subtle, where a carb that is close to big enough can benefit from a larger plenum area due to the larger area acting to slow or buffer down the pulses  seen by the carb?


My thinking, could be wrong, was that a if a taller open carb spacer reduced the vacuum and increased power, then that could indicate that the carburetor itself was a restriction.  Because the greater open plenum area makes the carb seem bigger to the engine.  In a sense, more open area under a carb allows it to come closer to its true maximum flow potential (and enlightenment). Yes, I know, you have to try it and see.  I am on board there.  Just trying to throw myself on to the fire for the good of the group. :)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 06:25:10 AM by plovett »

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2019, 06:31:49 AM »
We tried a lot of different spacer combos. The only combos we didn't try were no spacer, and a 2" open spacer which I believe the 1" open spacer with the HVH on top of it that we did try would be very close to.Jim

My427stang

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #75 on: March 28, 2019, 06:41:31 AM »
As a crude generality a dual plane intake will "want" a larger carb than a single plane intake.  Viewed as a single event (no such thing in reality), an intake runner demand will only "see" two barrels of the carb on a dual plane while it "sees" all four barrels on the connected plenum of a single plane.  An open spacer connects the two sides and gives the active runner a view of both sides of the carb at the same time it adds plenum volume.  It also helps even the air/fuel ratio from side to side.  This is assuming that the engine wants an even air/fuel ratio and that it wants the added volume and that it wants the added carb area....you get the idea.

You can spend lots of time expounding theories on carb spacers, but it usually far better to just clip them on a try them.  Things like an air/fuel ratio variance, vacuum in the intake at WOT (1.5 ain't really all that bad...put a 600 on it and it would probably be over 2.5), and a different than expected peak power or TQ RPM can clue you in that an opportunity for improvement exists.  But it does not mean that anything is really there - or that chasing it is worth the cost in power at other points in the power band for a given application.

I am with you lock stock and barrel.  However after bolting them on,  I would say that the spacer results are saying something.  Assuming there really is a problem and it isn't common with the smoothing calculation being off, the 4 hole under the carb with another spacer sorta working best lets me back into two things. Of course this is all opinion, and I can't say I ever looked at "unsmoothed" or "smoothed" data, or known which I was looking at, so maybe there is no issue at all and this is a display issue. However,

1 - The engine showed it wanted a little more plenum (not surprising at 600 hp and that RPM) Letting it pulse and breathe across both sides should dampen things a little or at least move the violence to a different RPM.  Not only from a plenum volume to let it breathe deep, but also from a dampening ability

2 - Something was screwing with the boosters that was corrected with the 4 hole.  It could be a top problem or a bottom problem.  If it was a harmonic of valve events or a reversion issue due to some other vale timing voodoo, the combination of plenum and a longer "carb throat" due to the 4 hole could have helped the booster by smoothing the flow beneath it. Would have been interesting to try an old 2 inch 4 hole there to see.  It also could have been a sloppy 850 venturi combined with it, it also could have been emulsion without quite enough air or slightly too small an HSAB or a fudged one as Blair said.  If the booster is going "solid fuel" for any reason (an overstatement), it would cycle too.  Which a more stable flow from the 4 hole may slightly allow the depression under the booster to stabilize a little

I don't mind the 850 design although they can be fussy, If I noticed it myself, big IF, I likely would have started with cleaning the HSAB gently, just to see if one was gunky.  However, I tend to blame harmonics, as I eluded to before an 11 inch runner tunes about 7000 rpm using Ramchargers theory.  This is riding the harmonics NOT airflow. I don't know the exact measurements of the port, but it's in the ballpark of being right on the edge of something at the RPM the data showed

Again, not being a dyno guy, Jay's update threw me off game a little because I am not sure I have ever known when I was looking at smoothed or unsmoothed data and how much of a smoothing factor most guys use.  However, if it is an issue, my gut says maybe try a little carb checking, if not, it's a resonance issue of some sort
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #76 on: March 28, 2019, 08:15:08 AM »
I just went out and looked in the intake with a LED flashlight. It is a new manifold and there is zero evidence of reversion. As far as I could see (dual plane makes it tough) it was all bright aluminum. No sign of discolorization. I rebuilt the carb myself before the dyno run and the air bleeds were clean as a whistle. Ill go over it carefully again, but given it being it non cross bolted block, I am pretty content to sit at 600hp. Now if I find ET variations on the top end, I will definately step up to a more tuneable race oriented carb to see if it makes a difference. My real fear is, last year I loaned the carb to a coworker while I wasn't using it to dyno his 383 scrub motor and maybe some of the bowturd bad Karma is messing up how the carb works! :o

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #77 on: March 28, 2019, 08:24:44 AM »
One last thing. My Holley 850 double pumper (#4781, non tuneable air bleeds) had the choke horn milled off. Could that be affecting the signal the high speed air bleeds see on the primary side? Jim

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2019, 11:37:16 AM »
Interesting info on the "smoothing orders". I often wondered why your (Jay) dyno graphs always looked a little choppy, at least compared to others. Now I know why.

While most people wouldn't even give it any thought, this is what makes a sharp carburetor guy worth his weight in gold. As long as it didn't get into the dangerous zone of being lean, none of this would make a difference in bracket style racing. Ok, maybe a very small difference in consistency, but hardly worth the hundreds and hundreds of dollars it would cost to have a 'guru' carb guy work out the issues. But things like this can be the difference between 1st and 2nd place in heads-up, close competition racing. Interesting stuff.

I don't think a data race-pak would even show the small variances shown and described here, so only access to a dyno, and repeated testing, would. Or years of track testing.

Just out of curiosity, is the carb all stock, as far as calibration?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 11:39:06 AM by cjshaker »
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2019, 01:03:00 PM »
I don't think it is a harmonic problem.  I don't think it will see a resonant frequency that many times through a fairly short rpm band.  I think it would only come once, or maybe twice by 6000 rpm, just based on things I have seen before.  I also think you won't see the valve harmonic pulsing the booster very much in a dual plane manifold.  None of the runners are aimed at the carb, and the low side is a looong way from the carb.

I have seen this exact same thing from "old" gasoline.  Jim, you might want to verify the age of that drum of gas you bought.  It is odd that it liked more than 33° timing, which makes me wonder some more about that gas.

Too late now, but fuel pressure and/or float level could also do that.  Whether you turn it more or not, and regardless of any power gain, it is better on the engine to smooth out the issue.  Smoothing the graph doesn't do a thing for the condition the engine sees, lol.

If you want to send me that carb sometime when I have a similar victim on the dyno, I would be glad to see if it is the carb, and if I can correct the surge.  Guessing I can fix it from the info, if it isn't just old fuel.......
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 01:05:07 PM by CaptCobrajet »
Blair Patrick

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2019, 02:04:23 PM »
I just bought the barrel of VP110 and the guy claimed it was only 2 weeks old. I bought it from a large distributor here in the twin cities.

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2019, 02:11:28 PM »
We also did set the float levels before running, and the dyno fuel pressure is set at 6 psi.  Dyno fuel pump is a big Magnaflow.

Blair, your fuel comment reminded me of the one pull where I just got started revving up the engine and it coughed and spit, then stopped suddenly.  I had forgotten to turn the dyno fuel pump on, and the engine only ran long enough to run the fuel out of the bowls.  Right when it shut off I looked over at Jim; I thought he was having a heart attack LOL!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 02:14:40 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2019, 02:37:25 PM »
You think you were in trouble telling your wife about the light pole. I might have been scared to go home and tell my wife if the motor blew on the dyno!. I just got off the phone with VP fuels also and they confirmed by the date on my barrel that it was no more than a month old. I personally broke the seal on it also. As long as it is not going to hurt the motor or make my ET's fluctuate, I am ok with where we are. In a way it is kind of cool knowing there might be more than 600 with a some small changes. Jim

FElony

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2019, 02:44:30 PM »
You think you were in trouble telling your wife about the light pole. I might have been scared to go home and tell my wife if the motor blew on the dyno!. I just got off the phone with VP fuels also and they confirmed by the date on my barrel that it was no more than a month old. I personally broke the seal on it also. As long as it is not going to hurt the motor or make my ET's fluctuate, I am ok with where we are. In a way it is kind of cool knowing there might be more than 600 with a some small changes. Jim

All koolness here. What Bracket class?

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2019, 04:07:06 PM »
I just went out and found my "purple" VP110 is brown. I called VP and they said they had an issue with some fuel a time back, but it still should be good. He also said they will replace my barrel for me just in case. Sooo, maybe the fuel could be suspect. Felony, I am a footbrake racer so fast bracket, no electronics. I'm expecting the car to run between 11.70 and 11.00. It doesnt matter so much as long as its consistent.

FElony

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2019, 04:28:29 PM »
  It doesnt matter so much as long as its consistent.

This.


57 lima bean

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2019, 04:54:19 PM »
I am a footbrake racer so fast bracket, no electronics.
   

        I really like this.

shady

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What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
2021 FERR cool FE Winner
2022 FERR cool FE Winner
2023 FERR cool FE Winner

WerbyFord

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2019, 10:21:18 PM »
In one of our shoulda-coulda-woulda thread on the old fordfe.com, (Ken maybe?) commented that "Ford was always late to the party" re eg the 428cj & even 390gt. In that spirit, here is the Gonkulator's late to the party Gonk:

Spacers as used (we didn't know this before the results came out)
Torq 550 at 5000
Powr 597 at 6300

No spacers
Torq 553 at 4900
Powr 589 at 6300
This would have been my guess, not knowing about the spacer combos. Not really that different.

I did throw a big 1150 dominator on top (airflow only, of course other stuff would change too) & got only 9hp more.
So with the 1" open spacer, I don't know how much the smallish carb is really hurting it. More likely as noted the kind of non-responsive nature of the old 850 Holley.

For more fun, I swapped on a set of box-stock Edelbrock heads on there.for
Torq 515 at 4900 (down 35)
Powr 535 at 6300 (down 62)
As of the late 1990s these were the "high dollar" heads for the FE. We have come a long way.

6667fan

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #89 on: April 03, 2019, 11:24:07 AM »
True!
JB
JB


67 Fairlane 500
482 cid 636/619.
Tunnel Wedge, Survival EMC CNC heads, Lykins Custom Hydraulic Roller, Ram adjustable clutch, Jerico 4-spd, Strange third member with Detroit Locker, 35 spline axles, 4.86
10.68@125.71 1.56 60’

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2019, 10:26:56 AM »
So I was looking and thinking and noticed my 2" primary x 3" outlet merge collectors neck down to 2 1/4" in the merge area before opening up to 3". Could that have been a restriction? Maybe causing or contributing to my high rpm rich lean fluctations? It may be worth a try once I get the car on the track to try some better collectors that do not neck down so much. Any opinions? Thanks, Jim

ec164

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2019, 07:18:34 PM »
So I was looking and thinking and noticed my 2" primary x 3" outlet merge collectors neck down to 2 1/4" in the merge area before opening up to 3". Could that have been a restriction? Maybe causing or contributing to my high rpm rich lean fluctations? It may be worth a try once I get the car on the track to try some better collectors that do not neck down so much. Any opinions? Thanks, Jim

Jim if my opinion counts, I think that merge down to 2.250 may help, most any race collector will choke down like that. Only one cylinder at a time has to get out!        Al
You're ahead in a Mercury......all the way

prost

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2019, 07:15:39 PM »
Barry, isn't this the exact same problem we ran into with that 850 DP on the Tunnel Port motor? Same fluctuations until we swapped the carb for yours?