Author Topic: FE Intake Adapter  (Read 353346 times)

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cammerfe

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #420 on: January 02, 2014, 01:42:54 PM »
Jay, just to put all this in perspective, it might be worthwhile to do a 'Red Green' retrospective and think about the uses for duct tape. " I'm pullin' for yah'! :)

KS

WConley

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #421 on: January 02, 2014, 08:01:09 PM »
Oh man that sux.  There used to be a website called haasplus.com that sold rebuild kits for the transmissions.

The website appears to be shut down permanently.  It seems the evil overlords put them out of business!
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

427Fastback

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #422 on: January 09, 2014, 07:17:49 PM »
Hey Mr.B......any word on what is wrong with your machine (mill).     Cory
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

jayb

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #423 on: January 09, 2014, 08:59:07 PM »
Yes.  Last Friday I had the service guy out at my place to listen to the machine and debug the problem.  He agreed that it sounded like the transmission, but wanted to run the standard test procedure.  This involves taking the motor and transmission loose as a unit, removing the cogged belt that connects the transmission output pulley to the spindle input pulley, and running the motor again to see if the noise was still there without the spindle connected.  He did that, and the engine and transmission together were quiet as a mouse.  He said this pointed to the top spindle bearing as the culprit.

Next he checked the oiling system on the mill.  The machine has an automatic oiling feature, so that while it is running every 30 minutes or so it squirts oil out into 16 little "meters" that oil the ways, the ballscrews, and the spindle bearings.  These meters are kind of like jets, with really small orifices.  Only one of the meters goes to the spindle bearings.  The service guy disconnected the oil line going to the spindle and put a little test tube on the end of the line.  Then he gave me a program to input that ran the mill table across a repetitive motion so that the oiling system would work with the spindle not running, and told me to run it for four hours like that, and then measure the amount of oil in the test tube.  It was supposed to have 2-3 ccs of oil in it at the end of the test.  He was suspicious that the meter was clogged and that the spindle bearings were not getting oil, and he was right.  After the four hours of the oiling test were up I looked in the test tube and it was pretty much bone dry.  Looks like that $10 clogged meter cost me a spindle.

The local service place did not have the correct replacement spindle cartridge, so the service guy got that lined up to ship from Haas in California; it is supposed to be here tomorrow.  They are going to call me to confirm that it came in and arrange to install it.  I'm hoping that they can get somebody out here on Saturday so that I can be up and running again this weekend, but if not I will have to take a vacation day one day next week so they can put it in.  Then, finally, I can get back to machining the manifolds.

I think I mentioned previously that I had purchased another CNC machine to take the load off my old Milltronics machine;  this one is another Haas machine, a smaller one called a VF-2.  It has many of the same systems as my VF-4, and is about the same vintage.  Over the weekend last weekend I thought it would be a good idea to check the spindle oil meter on that machine too.  What do you know, it was also clogged!  It was not completely blocked like the one on my VF-4, but the 4 hour test that was supposed to result in 2-3 ccs of oil resulted in less than 1 cc. So I had the service place order a new meter for that machine also, and I put that in earlier this week.  Now both machines give the correct amount of oil to the spindle during the four hour test.

One positive out of all this is that I have learned a whole lot about how these machines work and how to fix and diagnose problems with them.  When the service guy was here he was really helpful in answering all my questions and explaining his answers thoroughly.  He seemed like he really knew what he was doing, which I suppose makes sense since he works primarily on Haas machines.  The learning curve for me reminds me of when I got started with working on cars.  Over time the mysteries of how everything on a vehicle works peeled away, and I got very comfortable doing just about anything to my cars.  I need to get there with the CNC machines too...

Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

427Fastback

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #424 on: January 09, 2014, 09:24:12 PM »
Well you learned something and found the problem..Its all good..We have a small "First Mill" at work.I went to use it last week and was trying to move the table back and forth by hand and it was pretty much seized.Seems the automatic oiling doesn't work anymore or plugged so everyone just uses the automatic feed to move the table.Apparantly there is no need to tell anyone.....I guess I will be fixing it soon....

Glad to hear you will be making chips again..

Cory
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

machoneman

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #425 on: January 10, 2014, 08:06:50 AM »
Certainly no expert here on Haas machines! Yet, I wonder why or how such sophisticated machines have such a weak spot on a seemingly low tech part (the oiling function). I'm sure Jay you can't be the only user that has had this problem yet I'm slightly surprised Haas hasn't come up with a long-term fix. Is it metal chips that clogged the orifice? From flying off the spindle or do the chips somehow contaminate the oil supply? Any thoughts on a home-grown fix to avoid this issue for good? Just thinking out loud. 
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #426 on: January 10, 2014, 08:32:02 AM »
Well, one thing is that both my machines were originally built in 1995; maybe they have revised the oiling system so that this is no longer a problem now.  However, a local friend of mine who runs a production floor with a bunch of CNC machines has told me that this is a common problem.  His suggestion was to have the spindle in my machine repaired, rather than replaced, and repair it by putting in new bearings that are grease packed rather than bearings that rely on the oil supply.  He told me that the grease packed bearings have about 30% less life than the oiled bearings, but that they don't fail if the oil supply dries up.  That would have been a cheaper option for me too, but I had another concern with my spindle anyway, which was that the taper that the tool holder fits into was a little scarred up, and sometimes the tools would stick in the spindle and the machine would then stop and give an alarm when trying to do a tool change.  So a new spindle cartridge kills two birds with one stone for me.

The oiling system is isolated from the chips in the machine and I don't think that chips can get into the lines or the meters; I think that they clog mostly from varnish buildup over time, or else dirt that gets into the lube tank when it is filled up.  I'm actually giving some serious thought to replacing all 16 meters on both machines, just for peace of mind...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #427 on: January 12, 2014, 07:12:26 PM »
Glad you got to the bottom of it Jay!  It's still a PITA you're dealing with.  I know the spindle oiling is working fine on my Haas because I'll typically see a small amount of spindle oil on the table or vise under the spindle after setting overnight.  (As you describe, this only happens when the machine has been running for a while.)

Hopefully you get both machines up and running soon.  If you get much more equipment running in that barn you probably won't have to heat the place anymore!

- Bill
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #428 on: January 23, 2014, 08:35:56 AM »
Just a quick update here, my machine is back up and running, and so far the performance is really improved with the new spindle.  No more sticking tools, no more spindle orientation problems, etc.  I will have the first three intakes of the production batch (#3, #4, and #5 on the list) finished this weekend, with more done next week - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

turbohunter

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #429 on: January 23, 2014, 02:12:36 PM »
Congrats on that. 8)
Marc
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'66 Mustang Injected 428
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LargeRickhead66

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #430 on: January 23, 2014, 03:57:52 PM »
Jay; thanks for the update, I'm amazed by your abilities, not to mention your tenacity.
 Take your time on the adapters so as not to fall behind on your personal projects/builds.... Rick Wanner

KMcCullah

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #431 on: January 26, 2014, 10:47:29 PM »
Maybe this type of 351C intake has been around for a while and I've never noticed. But I think it's a neat deal from a porting standpoint. Besides porting I can't feature why you would want to split an intake in half. Maybe Mr. Craine will chime in.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-302-351C-Cleveland-3V-4V-w-Tongues-Fusion-High-Rise-Intake-Manifold-Satin-/171220765691?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27dd8d8bfb&vxp=mtr
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 10:54:54 PM by KMcCullah »
Kevin McCullah


jayb

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #432 on: January 27, 2014, 08:26:30 AM »
I think it probably is primarily for porting purposes.  Machoneman posted a picture of a similar manifold earlier in the thread.  I like the idea; if I end up making a dedicated single 4 intake for the adapter, I'll probably do it like that...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

427Fastback

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #433 on: January 27, 2014, 11:42:15 PM »
I better go cash in my bottles and food stamps.Sounds like my numbers are up in the next week or so..I look forward to seeing the manifolds.It will motivate me to get my heads finished...I will wait a bit before I buy a 351C intake and see what the dyno says.....Cory
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

machoneman

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Re: FE Intake Adapter
« Reply #434 on: January 28, 2014, 08:06:47 AM »
Maybe this type of 351C intake has been around for a while and I've never noticed. But I think it's a neat deal from a porting standpoint. Besides porting I can't feature why you would want to split an intake in half. Maybe Mr. Craine will chime in.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-302-351C-Cleveland-3V-4V-w-Tongues-Fusion-High-Rise-Intake-Manifold-Satin-/171220765691?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27dd8d8bfb&vxp=mtr

Actually, that is the only reason (porting) for the 2-piece intakes as only high-end, specially cast single planes get this treatment . IIRC, the first one I heard about some years ago now was for a (surprise!) SBC.

Apparently, some smart guy fed up with trying to maximize the flow of a single plane intake decided to take a bandsaw to an existing intake to experiment with and voila! Neat idea and very handy for the race engine guys.

 
Bob Maag