Poll: What would you rather see R&D on?

[Yellow Truck]

At the usual risk of displaying my lack of experience, I voted for a roller because my understanding of the difference between flat tappets and rollers in terms of performance was that a roller gave more options in terms of cam profile and therefor manipulating the shape of the torque curve, but at the cost of a heavier valve train resulting in a lower maximum RPM.

In a world with 10 speed automatic transmissions, torque curve width is less critical, but when you are driving a 4 or 6 speed manual under road (not 1/4 mile) conditions, being able to hold a gear longer because the engine isn't out of RPMs makes it possible to wring more out of the combination. My old 410 with an RV cam died at 4,500 RPM, with farmer 4 speed (meaning a 3 speed), it meant almost always being in the wrong gear.

My current build gets me to 6,000 before it is spent, and that means nicer behaviour entering the freeway. Getting it to 7,000 would be really nice.

Brent, you have to ask, why are you doing R&D? Is it to allow better affordable builds, or get the most you can from the engine? I know a lot of people will say it is elitist to do an expensive build, but isn't that another word for trying to excel?

Now if I'm wrong about the fundamental understanding about the cross over of advantage and disadvantage of roller vs flat tappet, my point resolves down to do the thing that pushes the limits you care about.

[blykins]

  Brent, you have to ask, why are you doing R&D? Is it to allow better affordable builds, or get the most you can from the engine?

Just to try different things or new things. 

In this case, I want to see how high we can go on a hydraulic roller.....and try out some new parts, which I hope to showcase later on.

[FElony]

If I understand what your "grassroots" definition is, you'll be happy with either direction that I go, because I'm using some parts that have been borrowed from other engine families, along with some thinking outside the box. 

My grassroots view is an extreme minority here. The short version is that I would rather build three loose beater engines with cheap/used parts than one high-buck mill that I'm paranoid about injuring. Rotate those thrashers in a light car with too much gear (face it, your wonder motor with 3.50's ain't gonna beat my grenade with 4.88's) and go get crazy. Kaboom? No problem. Next engine, step right up.

As for cam break-ins... anyone here remember Earl Varner from up in Lake Havasu? He used to post a fair bit here and there in the N54 forum. He was an engine builder (retired now) that built an absolute ton of Fords for both rodders and lakesters. Earl was vastly unknown/underrated. I used to yak on the phone with him about once a month. One of our favorite topics was all the mistakes DIY-ers make putting engines together that frig cam lobes, but they always blame the cam or the lifter or the oil. What I think would benefit this group is an ABC how-to VIDEO zeroing in on this stuff. That way, a guy is not pushed into a roller when he may not really want one. The amount of fear amongst grassroots people is embarrassing.

[FElony]

Seriously, though, why has nobody in this or the other forum ever installed zero-preload anti-pumps on an FE and let her rip?

In my Pile 'o Stuff is a box of new old-school Johnson solid lifters manufactured in the 90's that I bought off eBay a few years back. How many in that box? One hundred and thirty-six of them. If that doesn't tell you what my Man Card is made of, nothing will. 'Cuz that's how I roll.   

I did that hydraulic test on my own stuff in 1980 or so.  Before you and Al teamed up to invent the big internet.  Zero preload turn out to be the wrong answer.  Entrained air in the oil makes for squishy fluid that lets lift and control go away.  Now take and set them at maximum preload, stuff the lifter full of something solid to limit travel, and you've a working deal in a rules limits environment.  Or go solid flat which indeed rocks.

What is this "rules" you speak of? As mentioned, I ran my SBF's into the stratosphere many many times with zero probs. I have FE Anti's in a box now that I bought from Dennis at DSC. He told me zero preload.

There is absolutely no doubt that Gore was instrumental in opening doors via legislation and funding for programs that eventually expanded into the Net as we know it. By its nature, there could not have been a singular "inventor". So there ya go. Should he be tied to a bumper and dragged anyway? Sure, why not.

That tray of old Johnson solids is worth keeping and using.  Thought they were 128 per tray - might still have a box or two laying around for personal use.  Made back when companies gave a damn about quality.  Before we fired all the engineers and replaced them with purchasing execs and marketing specialists in an effort to convince us that the cheaper parts were the better they were for us.  Before the environmental nutcases took all the good chemicals out of everything.  Don't matter whether its cleaning parts or flushing the pot - they made us use three times as much of stuff that don't work to get a simple job done.

Yes, they are in a Federal Mogul 128-piece box. Seller gave me the extra 8 for giggles, I guess. They will come in handy when I build that half-roller, half-flat tappet
motor that babybolt predicted I would suggest.

I have a bunch of Johnson juicers, too. I will decline to guess how many so Tommy -T doesn't take a machete to my aforementioned Man Card. Johnson appears to have made a comeback in cahoots with Elgin, but I don't have any details. You?

[Barry_R]

Johnson was a great company that met a very "checkered" fate.  Originally (or previously - I aint looking it up) owned by Sealed Power, they were the top shelf lifter manufacturer for decades.  If you look at your's you will see that several from every tray were hardness checked during manufacture - they will have a pip mark from the brinnell tester.  When business dropped off in the 1990s the company fell on hard times and was acquired for a song by a minority ownership group that really lacked the finances or skills to run it.  After it was pretty much toast the rights and legacy were then acquired by the owner of Topline - an outfit that was a big player in the imported parts business.  They rebooted the company and built a new factory in the US to build them.

[FElony]

So there I was last might at the local watering hole, trying yet again to capture the eye of any desperate ho out for a really cheap thrill. I've been tuning up my old 70's Disco moves big time, so no way I could fail. Confidence bristling from every pore, I ignored everyone at the bar simultaneously face-palming when I cued up "Funkytown" by Lipps, Inc. and hit the floor in my platform shoes. What a vision of studliness I was. Ya should seen me thrown down, bruthuhs.

So there was a group of somber-looking gents in the corner. I thought I'd boogie on over and cheer them up. I slid across the floor, launched in the air, executed a one-and-a-half reverse twist, misjudged the landing (been awhile, you know), and crashed onto their table. Soy latte and glass everywhere. They pissed? You bet.

You can imagine the horror I felt when I was informed that I had just broken up the monthly meeting of Roller Cams Matter, an activist group dedicated to the freedom to choose any lobe profile a person wants , as long as it doesn't involve a flat tappet. There I was...clowns to the left of me...jokers to the right...and me stuck in the middle wearing bell bottoms and a Muff Diver t-shirt.

My attempt to slide my soy-soaked butt off the table and sprint to safety was for naught. Dudes pulled shiny roller cams from their George Soros Signature Series back packs and proceeded to pound me into Kibbles 'N' Bits. Mostly Bits. Dee Dee the waitress saved me from final destination by coming over and unleashing her massive mammaries from their over-stressed restraint apparatus. Since none of the Roller Cam Matters guys had ever actually seen real live boobsicles before, the distraction allowed me to make a blood-soaked getaway.

I suppose it could have been worse. Or that's what I told myself this morning, curled up in a fetal position clutching my box of Johnson flat tappets. There's one of me and only ten of them, so next time I'm catapulting into their chucklefest wearing my roller skates. They have no chance. I'm gonna jam Isky Rev-Lube down their throats until they puke. Just you wait and see. Maybe I'll keep some of the Lube for Dee Dee. She deserves it.

[shady]

OMG... I was at my favorite morning coffee watering hole just this morning and there was a group of local chevy guys in the corner discussing how to rebuild a blowed-up BBC one of the guys have. The subject of the cam came up, & I divulged that I have an Isky EE-399 cam I have been saving for years just for a special occasion. All three simultaneously drenched me in Tasters Choice. I had no idea they were members of Roller Cams Matter, but now it makes sense.

[machoneman]

Hey, I only voted for the flat tappet deal to see how well the non-adjustable rocker/correct p-rod length would do. Heck, most of us grew up pitching the non-adjustable rockers on all kinds of Detroit iron, only now to find out the generally lighter rockers apparently perform well. That and we all seem to know (now at least!) a heavy valvetrain even in streetable engines with hydro rollers does limit rpms....a lot!

Maybe we'll get to see the rpm limits of a light roller lifter, strong but light p-rods, button retainers (steel or tit.), small diameter stemmed valves and non-adjustable rockers.  Would be cool......

[Coreyc619]

Yeah yeah, anybody willing to bush the FE block for a smaller/lighter late model lifter could truly expand upon the limitations of a factory FE design, if pitched a hydraulic roller.   
Reading between the lines, the primary innovator amongst FE builders in this field seems to have lost interest somewhat over the past 5ish years - I bet that wasn't a random conclusion.  Careful choice of springs and small stem valves wouldn't hurt - especially when you're just bored/looking to prove you can.  Eventually, I would certainly appreciate that particular test and your efforts to provide it to the rest of us... But... All told, I can't see the market for that sort of deal being terribly vast, given the cost primarily, but also the known limitations of factory blocks as far as RPM is concerned - this is especially true for modern stroker kits.  Not exactly uncommon. I'm not a professional machinist, nor am I pretending to be.... But I have a shnat ton of experience with various engine platforms.   1000% shooting from the hip here, but perhaps an educated guess, on your direction and parts selection to hit 7500 on hyd roller.  I voted solid flat tappet for a reason.  I'm but 33 years old, yet the FE is my favorite engine platform of all time.  I guess you could say I have a sentimental attachment to things I may not have been present for, but still appreciate.  I also feel the market for such a thing would be far greater given you gave the heads the same sort of detailed treatment, but skipped bushed lifter bores.  Light weight springs and valves are going to extend intervals between valve lash throw downs, and reduce lifter failure, duh.  I think more folks would be interested in them if you could put some data in front of them.  There are more of "us" interested in keeping it old school but still tearing some ass up between stoplights - on a budget - than there are in canted valve billet headed 540 cube fuck-boy combos that drop 35k on a long block but still want the "street manners" internet folklore has promised them from a hyd roller.

Either way.  I greatly appreciate appreciate the handful of you guys still looking to innovate and get outside the paradigms.  In my opinion, the FE platform has lurched forward more in the past 5-8 years, than any other. I get kinda pissed when I compare our very best aftermarket block offering to a factory LS iron block.  I'll probably never build another one after this one for that reason.  I want 2500 hp, and an inspection sticker. (next build). I can do that with any number of engine platforms, just not the one I love the most.  It sucks.  Keep pushing, Mr. Lykins.  Maybe the parts will be there when I'm ready, if you do.

[cjshaker]

I want 2500 hp, and an inspection sticker. (next build). I can do that with any number of engine platforms.....

Talk about "internet folklore" 
And how long exactly do you think these "2500 hp" engines last? Stock blocks? Weeks, maybe? Otherwise, there is your $35k shortblock that you loathe. The world has no shortage of 2000+ hp engines these days, they just don't tell you about the buttloads of cash and/or big money sponsors that float them endless supplies of parts.

[My427stang]

What if you decided to do an all iron motor, with factory ford parts, maybe a 70s era aftermarket intake, and use modern pistons, cam, and maybe some fancy valve and port work?  Sounds grassroots to me

Leave a set of blue valve covers on it if it's not grassroots enough....

[blykins]

Hydraulic roller it is.  Stay tuned.

[FElony]

Hydraulic roller it is.  Stay tuned.

I object! It's obvious Roller Cams Matter hacked the voting process. Flats were gaining steam on the far end until someone suspiciously hit the nitrous button. I can't prove this, but now I'm going to write a book about what happened here any way, and go on an apology tour immediately thereafter.

16 clackety lifters. 8 bellowing venturis. 4 whining gears. 2 springy points. And a barkbark locker in a parking lot. I think there's a song here somewhere. Don't matter, it's all music to me.

[FElony]

What if you decided to do an all iron motor, with factory ford parts, maybe a 70s era aftermarket intake, and use modern pistons, cam, and maybe some fancy valve and port work?  Sounds grassroots to me

Leave a set of blue valve covers on it if it's not grassroots enough....

Close. Want a challenge? Take a dead stock '67 GT390 engine (C7 heads have the worst rep, so use those) including the iron S intake, blueprint it with cast pistons and a factory copy solid FLAT lifter cam, DIY porting, factory dual-screen GT air cleaner, points dizzy, and CJ exhaust manifolds. Put it into a middle weight intermediate stick car and fine tune the entire combination for the straight line. Let's see what that poor maligned 390 can do. Put the stock factory '18 GT's in your crosshairs.

Edit: Oh and don't forget to use umbrellas seals on the heads for PROPER oil to the valve stems. Don't want to flatten those lobes, do we?

[My427stang]

What if you decided to do an all iron motor, with factory ford parts, maybe a 70s era aftermarket intake, and use modern pistons, cam, and maybe some fancy valve and port work?  Sounds grassroots to me

Leave a set of blue valve covers on it if it's not grassroots enough....

Close. Want a challenge? Take a dead stock '67 GT390 engine (C7 heads have the worst rep, so use those) including the iron S intake, blueprint it with cast pistons and a factory copy solid FLAT lifter cam, DIY porting, factory dual-screen GT air cleaner, points dizzy, and CJ exhaust manifolds. Put it into a middle weight intermediate stick car and fine tune the entire combination for the straight line. Let's see what that poor maligned 390 can do. Put the stock factory '18 GT's in your crosshairs.

Edit: Oh and don't forget to use umbrellas seals on the heads for PROPER oil to the valve stems. Don't want to flatten those lobes, do we?

Do it man, if that makes you feel groovy.  I'd love to see it.  You probably have all those parts laying around, just need to find a new home for the black widows