Author Topic: dry sump questions  (Read 17057 times)

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cammerfe

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2018, 05:14:30 PM »
I sit here and read this stuff---say 'yup' and 'nope' (and hope I'm right at least part of the time) and just grin and take it in and learn sumthin'. ;D

KS

scott foxwell

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2018, 05:56:53 PM »
A little off the main topic, but, a six stage pump PLUS a dedicated vacuum pump, what kind of load does that put on the crank snout?
I do know that a vac pump takes less than 2hp to run. Don't know about the dry sump. Kinda depends on ratio/pump speed, oil pressure, etc. and some pumps are more efficient than others by design. I agree with Barry...it's not a lot.

andyf

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2018, 06:21:37 PM »
I've been running a six stage on the SOHC in my Shelby clone for the last several years.  Three pickups in the pan, one at the back of each head, plus the pressure stage.  I was told by the dry sump folks (Peterson Fluid Systems) that this would give me plenty of crankcase vacuum.  That turned out to be BS, it will deliver some vacuum at idle but not when the engine starts running at higher engine speeds.  I was always able to get 15 inches of vacuum with my GZ Motorsports vacuum pump.  For the cost, weight, and complexity of the dry sump system, and no crankcase vacuum to speak of, I'm very disappointed in it.  I'm going back to a normal FE oil pump and pan, a vacuum pump, and an accumulator (Accusump) to ensure oiling under all conditions.

Jay, are you using the new R4 pump design? I use a 5 stage R4 pump on my race engines and I can usually pull more than 10 inches. I'd think a 6 stage would pull a little more.

andyf

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2018, 06:23:14 PM »
I also built my own billet pan with extra thick rails to eliminate leaks and to reduce the thickness.

cjshaker

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2018, 07:04:20 PM »
Lots of folks here smarter than I am, but still seems that the biggest "leak" is going to be past the rings. I'd have to think that would affect the oiling available on cylinders, which is what feeds the pins, at least on some scale.
Doug Smith


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'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
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scott foxwell

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2018, 07:33:58 PM »
Lots of folks here smarter than I am, but still seems that the biggest "leak" is going to be past the rings. I'd have to think that would affect the oiling available on cylinders, which is what feeds the pins, at least on some scale.
Part of what a vac pump is supposed to do is reduce that "leak" by increasing ring seal. If it doesn't, then something else is wrong and it's not doing what it's supposed to do. If you have a lot of blow-by, a vac pump isn't going to fix it.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 07:37:50 PM by scott foxwell »

cjshaker

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2018, 07:55:09 PM »
I didn't say "a lot" of blow-by. On a well sealed engine, it's still going to be the biggest source of incoming air. If there were no air movement, as you suggested by calling it a depression, then there would be no need for a catch can.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Barry_R

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2018, 08:27:00 PM »
I didn't say "a lot" of blow-by. On a well sealed engine, it's still going to be the biggest source of incoming air. If there were no air movement, as you suggested by calling it a depression, then there would be no need for a catch can.

Agree in principal.  Now expand that thought to look at the differences between pulling the vacuum from a valve cover (vacuum pump) versus from the oil pan (dry sump).  One would be pulling upward on vapor only, the other would be pulling downward on the oil return level in the pan.  I would imagine that there would be a difference but have zero data to compare...  Anyone?

cjshaker

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2018, 09:09:53 PM »
If the rings were the biggest source of incoming air, it wouldn't matter much where the vacuum is being pulled from, it still has to travel down the cylinder and into the crankcase before it can go into the upper part of the engine. I have zero experience with this stuff, just trying to reason it out.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

scott foxwell

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2018, 09:13:23 PM »
I didn't say "a lot" of blow-by. On a well sealed engine, it's still going to be the biggest source of incoming air. If there were no air movement, as you suggested by calling it a depression, then there would be no need for a catch can
OK, no argument there.
Not sure I get your point. I didn't suggest there would be no movement. A depression does not suggest "no movement". But, to follow your thinking, how much blow by would you expect on a well sealed n/a engine without a vac pump...say, in CFM? Lets say a 500hp 400ci engine at 6000rpm?

scott foxwell

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2018, 09:21:14 PM »
I didn't say "a lot" of blow-by. On a well sealed engine, it's still going to be the biggest source of incoming air. If there were no air movement, as you suggested by calling it a depression, then there would be no need for a catch can.

Agree in principal.  Now expand that thought to look at the differences between pulling the vacuum from a valve cover (vacuum pump) versus from the oil pan (dry sump).  One would be pulling upward on vapor only, the other would be pulling downward on the oil return level in the pan.  I would imagine that there would be a difference but have zero data to compare...  Anyone?
There is no difference as far as vacuum is concerned. We've experimented with pulling from just about everywhere in the engine thinking that by pulling from somewhere in the crankcase, we had a more direct path to the back of the piston. Doesn't work that way. The only difference with the dry sump is, it can pull oil and not be a problem. If you try to pull vacuum from anywhere else in the engine except the valve cover, it's almost impossible to not pull oil, and a LOT of it. It's not raw oil that's the problem, either, it's the oil vapor. Talked to Stan at Stef's at length about this. They've tried about every oil baffle/screen/mesh/foam combination lower in the engine and it always ends up the same. Pulling too much oil and the vac pump doesn't work as well trying to move the oil. Kind of like a dry sump scavenge line full of oil doesn't pull much vacuum. Everyone I know who uses a vac pump and wet sump says the best place to pull vac is the valve cover. The crank case will "equalize".
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 08:20:46 AM by scott foxwell »

blykins

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2018, 05:18:47 AM »
We may all be saying the same thing, and then again, we may all be saying something different.  Either way, I don't feel the need to perpetuate an argument, because we are all basically just bench racing here, and some of us here would carry this argument into 2019.  Here are some random thoughts, not in any order, and I'm not expecting (or really wanting at this point) a response.

1.  A dry sump scavenge line isn't always sucking pure oil.  There will be times where it will be picking up air, that's why your dry sump tanks are screened/baffled so that the air
and oil is separated.   To compound that, in situations where you have a scavenge point in a lifter valley or similar, there will be times where it will be pulling a LOT of air. 

Randy Gillis emailed me yesterday about this and I don't think he would mind if I shared an excerpt from his email:

"One of the cup teams I worked with at JE had a "pan camera" and logged data with varying vacuum numbers. The amount of oil "on the lens" changed dramatically  with increased vacuum ( less with higher vacuum) , to the point where it wasn't too blurry at 16"s."

Cup engines have multiple scavenge points from both the crankcase, enclosed cam tunnel, lifter valley, valve covers, etc.  If they have placed a lens on the oil pan where they are scavenging from, then Randy's quote backs up what some of us are saying about "pulling oil away" from critical engine parts and backs up Blair's tornado analogy.   In a sense, the pump does act like a big vacuum cleaner in that respect. 

2.  Wearing wrist pins because of vacuum *is indeed* an issue, and is not only caused by poor parts selection or quality. 

We all know who David Reher is, right?  A quote from him regarding wrist pins, oiling, etc:

"Wrist pin problems were rampant in Pro Stock several years ago, and the cure was to apply some very expensive coatings. Spending $800 for coated pins is not a cost-effective solution for most sportsman racers, however; the object is to make as many runs as possible at a reasonable price. Assuming that the wrist pins have adequate strength, it’s possible to head off many problems simply by ensuring that the pins have adequate clearance and lubrication.

The crankcase in an engine with a conventional wet-sump oil pan is awash in oil. If there is a condition that’s heating up the wrist pins or stressing the piston and rod bores, the sheer volume of oil in the crankcase will carry off the excess heat. But a well-designed oil pan with a kick-out, crankshaft scraper and a vacuum pump (or a good dry-sump system) will dramatically reduce the amount of oil in the crankcase. While an efficient oil system reduces windage and increases horsepower, it can also put the wrist pins in jeopardy – another instance of unintended consequences. In fact, the wrist pins in the even-numbered cylinders are often the first to show signs of distress caused by insufficient lubrication because they are on the side of the engine that has much of its lubrication stripped away by the crankshaft scraper and oil pan kickout.

In this situation, my recommendation is to increase the wrist pin clearance. Most engine manuals recommend wrist pin clearances between .0008 and .0010-inch for conventional engines; my advice is to run .0020 to .0022-inch wrist pin clearance in a serious drag racing engine. My perspective on engine clearances is straightforward: When in doubt, a little loose will seldom result in catastrophic failure, but a little too tight will almost always cause problems."

3.  Maybe I'll pull the oil pan off of the engine I posted and glue in a plexi window.  Just kidding.



Brent Lykins
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scott foxwell

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2018, 08:28:20 AM »
Efficient scavenging, whether mechanical in a wet sump or by vacuum in a dry sump, and limiting the oil that may or may not be getting to the wrist pins, is not the same as saying "vacuum is sucking oil off the wrist pins". The scavenging effect on wrist pins makes sense.

blykins

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2018, 08:46:19 AM »
Never mind, have a good day.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 08:56:21 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

scott foxwell

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2018, 09:43:57 AM »


We all know who David Reher is, right?  A quote from him regarding wrist pins, oiling, etc:

"Wrist pin problems were rampant in Pro Stock several years ago, and the cure was to apply some very expensive coatings. Spending $800 for coated pins is not a cost-effective solution for most sportsman racers, however; the object is to make as many runs as possible at a reasonable price. Assuming that the wrist pins have adequate strength, it’s possible to head off many problems simply by ensuring that the pins have adequate clearance and lubrication.

The crankcase in an engine with a conventional wet-sump oil pan is awash in oil. If there is a condition that’s heating up the wrist pins or stressing the piston and rod bores, the sheer volume of oil in the crankcase will carry off the excess heat. But a well-designed oil pan with a kick-out, crankshaft scraper and a vacuum pump (or a good dry-sump system) will dramatically reduce the amount of oil in the crankcase. While an efficient oil system reduces windage and increases horsepower, it can also put the wrist pins in jeopardy – another instance of unintended consequences. In fact, the wrist pins in the even-numbered cylinders are often the first to show signs of distress caused by insufficient lubrication because they are on the side of the engine that has much of its lubrication stripped away by the crankshaft scraper and oil pan kickout.

In this situation, my recommendation is to increase the wrist pin clearance. Most engine manuals recommend wrist pin clearances between .0008 and .0010-inch for conventional engines; my advice is to run .0020 to .0022-inch wrist pin clearance in a serious drag racing engine. My perspective on engine clearances is straightforward: When in doubt, a little loose will seldom result in catastrophic failure, but a little too tight will almost always cause problems."

He also went on to say;
"Remember that drag racing engines are usually stone cold when they go down the race track. We start the engine and get to the staging lights as quickly as possible because a cold engine makes more power than a hot one. Consequently drag racers don’t have the luxury of an extended warm up period to bring all of the parts up to operating temperature. In these circumstances, a little extra clearance is a good thing."
Keeping things in context is also important.