Author Topic: dry sump questions  (Read 17055 times)

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blykins

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2018, 11:01:15 AM »
Cool, man.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 11:13:32 AM by blykins »
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gt350hr

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2018, 11:14:05 AM »
 High vacuum does contribute to wrist pin galling. Nascar engine builders found that out 15+ years ago. Many different combinations of pin oiling were tried and it was DLC coating that saved the day. They also found that vacuum in excess of 16"s didn't improve power in a "cup" engine. On a 351 style block an Autoverde ( for example) 5 or 6 stage pump can pull big vacuum numbers. Different dry sump gear styles have different efficiency levels too. Some do have a tough time pulling a vacuum. As the engine displacement and crank case volume increases a secondary vacuum pump is usually required.
      I agree with Scott that a dry sump is not a "tremendous advantage" over a wet sump ( that keeps the pick up covered in oil) Some racing styles make a dry sump a necessity.
   Randy

CaptCobrajet

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2018, 11:25:31 AM »
If there are no leaks and you can't pull vacuum with a 5-stage pump, there are ring sealing issues.  I have one running a 5-stage pump that I can get 16 inches if I want it.  I prefer to regulate it to 12 inches because wrist pin galling is a real issue over the long haul.  When the oil on the cylinder wall is minimized by the vacuum, the forced pin oilers in the oil ring groove just don't have as much oil to lube the pins, and the oil splash is less.  Brent is correct that coated pins are a good practice for high vacuum.  I dynoed a 4-stage dry sump in March that pulled 6 inches of vacuum.  If the rings are sealed and it ain't sucking air........a good dry sump should pull vacuum.  If the rings leak more than the pump can overcome, there will be no vacuum.
Blair Patrick

scott foxwell

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2018, 12:06:44 PM »
If there are no leaks and you can't pull vacuum with a 5-stage pump, there are ring sealing issues.  I have one running a 5-stage pump that I can get 16 inches if I want it.  I prefer to regulate it to 12 inches because wrist pin galling is a real issue over the long haul.  When the oil on the cylinder wall is minimized by the vacuum, the forced pin oilers in the oil ring groove just don't have as much oil to lube the pins, and the oil splash is less.  Brent is correct that coated pins are a good practice for high vacuum.  I dynoed a 4-stage dry sump in March that pulled 6 inches of vacuum.  If the rings are sealed and it ain't sucking air........a good dry sump should pull vacuum.  If the rings leak more than the pump can overcome, there will be no vacuum.
How is oil on the cylinders minimized by vacuum?

CaptCobrajet

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2018, 12:49:26 PM »
Did you really just ask that question?……..........there is a tornado around the crankshaft.  There are three (usually) or more scavenge lines plugged in the oil pan.  They are pulling oil out of the tornado constantly.  The splash that is normally created from the oil bleeding out of the bearings is bathing the cylinders with oil.  Remove part of that mass of oil....remove some of the oil on the cylinder wall.  Oil ring 101....the oil ring digests the oil from the cylinder bore and sends it to the underside of the piston via windows or holes in the groove.  Good pistons also have forced pin oilers ducting from the oil ring groove.  All of the oil picked up by the oil ring is sent to the wrist pin......either by forced oilers or by the "windows" behind the expander.  If you reduce the splash, you reduce oil to the cylinders, and oil to the pins.

Really high vacuum apps have pressure fed pin oiling through the rod beam from the rod bearing source.
Blair Patrick

scott foxwell

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2018, 01:10:21 PM »
Did you really just ask that question?……..........there is a tornado around the crankshaft.  There are three (usually) or more scavenge lines plugged in the oil pan.  They are pulling oil out of the tornado constantly.  The splash that is normally created from the oil bleeding out of the bearings is bathing the cylinders with oil.  Remove part of that mass of oil....remove some of the oil on the cylinder wall.  Oil ring 101....the oil ring digests the oil from the cylinder bore and sends it to the underside of the piston via windows or holes in the groove.  Good pistons also have forced pin oilers ducting from the oil ring groove.  All of the oil picked up by the oil ring is sent to the wrist pin......either by forced oilers or by the "windows" behind the expander.  If you reduce the splash, you reduce oil to the cylinders, and oil to the pins.

Really high vacuum apps have pressure fed pin oiling through the rod beam from the rod bearing source.
I thought the scavenge lines pulled oil from the pan, not off the crank. That doesn't make sense.
The "tornado" around the crank is an oil mist, not raw oil. The raw oil that gets thrown off the crank onto the cyl walls and back into the pan still does the exact same thing and in fact does it more effectively since there is less atmosphere in the crankcase. I think too many associate the word "vacuum" with the "vacuum" that you clean your house with. Unless you have a massive leak or tons of blow by, the word "vacuum" is really the wrong word. We should be saying depression. We are describing the atmospheric condition inside the crankcase, not the "action" of "sucking". There is "sucking" going on, but it's not "sucking" oil off the wrist pins and it's not "sucking" oil off the crank.
Very VERY few engines have rod beams with oil holes.
Some guys get this, some don't.

cjshaker

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2018, 02:58:07 PM »
The oil system is pressurized. So Scott, you're saying that vacuum has no effect on pressure? That the vacuum is not pulling oil out of the cranks pressurized oil paths? If it is being pulled out, where is it being pulled to? Even to a dummy like me, that would seem to be apparent.
Doug Smith


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Barry_R

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2018, 03:20:16 PM »
The oil system is pressurized. So Scott, you're saying that vacuum has no effect on pressure? That the vacuum is not pulling oil out of the cranks pressurized oil paths? If it is being pulled out, where is it being pulled to? Even to a dummy like me, that would seem to be apparent.

Doug
its more complex than you may think - but Scott has a legitimate point.

A vacuum is a measure of comparative pressure, and does not imply air (or fluid) movement.  In a perfectly sealed container with a given volume of fluid, holding a vacuum on it will not cause any movement at all.  The function of creating that vacuum will require mass movement and that is where the fun begins.  If the creation of that negative pressure is a one time isolated event, the movement is going to be nominal over time.  If creating and maintaining that depression requires a lot of work (leaks in the system) you will certainly have movement.

All engines are imperfect in terms of sealing, and will thus have some degree of leakage, meaning that some flow through the system is inevitable.  Whether that is enough to have a significant impact on oiling and durability is where perceptions and opinions diverge.  Its common to use NASCAR derived comparisons, but those folks actively manage oiling, trying to have the least possible amount of oil in some areas and to intentionally flood others - - not a valid comparison to anything normal in our world.

I do know that having a vacuum will improve ring sealing to the point that many racers will go down on ring tension and make even more power.  I also know that if your clearances are a half a thou too loose nobody will ever know, half a thou too tight everybody will know....

scott foxwell

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2018, 03:34:07 PM »
The oil system is pressurized. So Scott, you're saying that vacuum has no effect on pressure? That the vacuum is not pulling oil out of the cranks pressurized oil paths? If it is being pulled out, where is it being pulled to? Even to a dummy like me, that would seem to be apparent.
No, oil is not being "pulled out". Pressure differential, Doug. It's only being "pulled out" if there is less pressure in the crankcase than in the pump. 22"hg is not the low side of 50 psi. The oil is still being pushed although with less resistance. Think about where the oil pressure gauge is reading... it's not inside the crankcase. "Low oil pressure" is another misunderstood (non-issue) with vac pump. Oil is still flowing, still getting where it needs to get to,  still doing it's job.
1 inch of mercury = 0.49109778 pounds per square inch so if we have 20"hg in the crank case and we started with 50psi oil pressure, we still have over 40psi measured oil pressure...but we've done nothing to the volume or flow of oil except maybe increase it. Remember that pressure is a measure of resistance and we've reduced the resistance by changing the pressure D.

scott foxwell

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2018, 03:38:33 PM »
...

Heo

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2018, 03:45:43 PM »
One thought, if you put a liquid under vaccum you lower its
boilingpoint could it bee that the oil at the pins that's not under pressure
are boiling at a certain vaccum and loose it lubrication ability?



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scott foxwell

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2018, 04:11:35 PM »
One thought, if you put a liquid under vaccum you lower its
boilingpoint could it bee that the oil at the pins that's not under pressure
are boiling at a certain vaccum and loose it lubrication ability?
From what I've seen and learned...and this is just me, now...I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer here...but when rigidity was increased in the system of parts, it seemed to solve the problem believed to be associated with a lack of oil.

Heo

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2018, 04:33:30 PM »
Well i dont know just a thought i had , The aluminium in the
piston transfer heat to the pistonpin vaccum lower the boiling
point. I guess a nascar pin runs hotter than a Dragracing pin
atleast have longer time to heat up for sure
I dont know at what temp oil boils under say 20 or 30 inch/hg
or what temp a piston pin see so i can be at the wrong trail
Im just a selfthought backyard mecanic
Only drysump experiace i have is from brittish motorcycles
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 04:40:19 PM by Heo »



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Dumpling

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2018, 04:39:24 PM »
A little off the main topic, but, a six stage pump PLUS a dedicated vacuum pump, what kind of load does that put on the crank snout?

Barry_R

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Re: dry sump questions
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2018, 04:42:15 PM »
A little off the main topic, but, a six stage pump PLUS a dedicated vacuum pump, what kind of load does that put on the crank snout?

Not as much as you might think.  Consider the size of an oil pump drive shaft