Author Topic: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results  (Read 5116 times)

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jgkurz

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Re: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2017, 11:56:05 AM »
Very cool build.  Hope my questions weren't taken wrong, simply curious as you don't see a build like this everyday.

Best of luck with her, it'll be a fun engine to haul that Mustang.

 All good Drew. Don't mind the questions at all. I am relatively new to the FE community so I am learning as I go. I am curious how my build is different from what you typically see.

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2017, 01:04:52 PM »
I am curious how my build is different from what you typically see.

Well, where to start.
Not knowing that you were gifted the rotating assembly, it seemed odd to spend $4000+ more than you needed to on it for the intended purpose.
I would consider the crank and rods to be something for the highest end of racing,  certainly not needed for an engine that dies out WELL before 7,000rpm where those parts would start to earn their keep.  That is why I was curious if a cam swap was considered in the future.  But then, why the stock block and not an aftermarket piece?

The lifters are the same story.

Same with dual 750cfm carbs.  You could do the same with dual 600's.  I mean, why focus on low end torque in one place, but than ignore it in the other place?  Seems incongruent.

Previous dyno slips for a BP mild street 482 typically yield a solid 100-150hp more with far lesser parts (from what I've seen him post here).  Obviously with no cam info it's hard to guess at certain things, but where the rpm dies off I'd suspect it's incredibly mild, which is cool, and very sensible for a nice street driven car, but once again, why the large carbs, excessive overkill in the crank/rods, short travel lifters for a 5500 rpm engine, etc.

The build itself, and the pictures you posted sure to show a great amount of craftsmanship and thought put into the plumbing and the entire build, it is for sure to be commended, you should really be proud of it.

I'll just leave this link here, a 445 BP engine
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2828.0

A 482 BP engine, with roughly the same rpm range yet 100+ hp down from yours with presumably far lesser parts:
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2829.0

It's in the same forum as your 482 build.  It's an engine built by Blair that would probably cost half as much for approximately the same end result.

It's like building a full, top of the line roll cage for a 16 second car.

I apologize if answering your question in this way is inappropriate here in a thread that is supposed to be about how nice your engine is (which it is).  But that is why it was "different" than what I'm used to seeing.
Dp
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 01:21:17 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

cjshaker

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Re: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2017, 02:23:13 PM »
Thanks for the pictures and response, John.
You've addressed most of the areas I thought may have been an issue; 3" piping instead of 2.5" and fuel log improved for better fuel delivery. Both of those are borderline for my car (I have 2.5" and stock fuel log), but haven't proven to be an issue yet. On an engine like yours, I would most certainly think they would be. You've certainly thought things out well to avoid those issues, although I think you may be right about the location of the filter and line causing a fuel issue with heat. Nice job on the fuel log, too!

I wondered about the mufflers because they kind of looked like Flowmasters, which might have accounted for much of that loss. They just don't flow that well.

The stock oval air cleaner probably doesn't help much either, but we both know there isn't any room under that Mustang hood for anything taller. Joe Craine gave a good suggestion once, about contouring the entry of the base to flow better into the carb, kind of like the stub stacks that do the same thing. That may help a tad, and is something I was planning on doing. Unfortunately, the stub stacks put the entry too close to the top of the housing and would probably hurt rather than help.

That fuel tank is also interesting. I wasn't aware of that piece being available. Having access to the top of the tank would be great for any pump issues, unlike all modern cars where the tank has to be dropped. Thanks for that link. Only drawback I can see is that the wires coming out the top would have to be protected, so no big suitcases for that cross country trip ;D

Thanks for the write-up and posting your results, and have fun with that thing!
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 1965 427 MR Sideoiler 2x4, 4-spd Toploader, 4.30 Detroit Locker
2 1965 Galaxies with 390s
1970 F-350 390
1958 Ford Ranch Wagon 390

jgkurz

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Re: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2017, 02:39:48 PM »
Hi Drew, I appreciate your honest feedback. I take it as an FE enthusiest wanting to understand the results and interested in helping me to get the most out of my setup. With that said I do have a some thoughts. I just added the actual dyno data to my first post. I believe I captured the relevant data but I have the RAW spreadsheet I can upload if anyone cares. I also think the average #'s are important.

Average HP    482.8
Average Torque 547.9



I definitley know about BP's other builds but I have a several things going against me.

1) Most BP engines I have seen make big power, 666hp with one that had a Tunnel Wedge. I have a dual plane 2x4. Probably losing some top end there. The BP 445ci has almost the same curve as my engine with 40 less cubes which is interesting.

2) My Precision Oil Pumps Melling HV has too much pressure. The posted dyno chart was with 5w20 and I'm still well over 90psi at temp. This is robbing power for sure. I'll be changing the pump out before it goes in the car. I also will be running 10w30.

3) My mechanical water pump and fuel pump. I wanted the reliability of a mechanical water pump and the simplicity of a mechanical fuel pump. I am sure this is costing me HP.

4) My header collector necks down from 3.5" to 3" for my exhaust system. On my merge collectors this is a penalty

5) Camshaft, I wanted a hydraulic roller cam that netted best possible power on pump gas. I didn't even care about vacuum but I ended up with 10inHG so win/win

6) Dyno differences. The Superflow 902 dyno may be different from the Stuska BP uses. I'm not sure if that means a 1% difference or 5% or more but it may be factor.

7) BP didn't build my engine. I think my setup is done well but it doesn't have the BP special sauce. I was warned fairly.

8 )  The stock block was a result of the project changing directions. At one point I was planning on a Shelby aluminum block. I changed directions probably three or four times. If I had to start over I would probably go with a aftermark cast block which would probably get me me a few more ponies. In the end, I went forward with the stock block.

9) For the carbs I had a set of OEM BC/BD 715cfm Holley's that might have been rebuildable but I sold them for more money then the QF cards. I also asked Blair for carbs dialed in to my application. As far as I'm concerned they were spot on correct. I didn't even have to mess with idle mixture.

10) My rotating assy is over kill but is was free and gives me confidence. That was good enough for me.

I hope that answers your questions. I sure would have liked over 600hp but it didn't end up that way for various reason that I understand. I'm not sure what I would do anything different given the requirements I asked for. I am open to ideas/changes but no matter what I'm going to flog this engine for a while. I am very happy with my first FE. :)   The quarter mile will be the best dyno in my opinion.





« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 01:06:30 PM by jgkurz »

CaptCobrajet

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Re: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2017, 04:19:21 PM »
I think you and Craig did very well, myself.  I always use an electric water pump and an electric fuel pump, just for ease of  use, to do them all the same way.  I also think 35 psi extra oil pressure is a power robber.  I think John is right that the 3" adapter on the end of the collector is hurting it a little.  I also think the 4.300 crank will gobble up camshaft in a hurry.  Couple that with his dual plane intake, and OE side oiler block, and then his engine starts looking pretty darn good, in my opinion.  Great job!  And btw, a pleasure to work with throughout the process. 
Blair Patrick

427LX

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Re: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2017, 07:01:55 PM »
Very nice build! Dyno HP is one thing but the real HP as installed in the car is the truth.

Hood clearance will dictate what type air cleaner and or carb spacer you will use.... under hood heat will affect the HP....
and what type and size exhaust system that will fit the chassis.

You might see 600 on the dyno but really have 550 when installed depending on weather conditions.

I'll give up a few HP for a mechanical fuel pump and water pump on the street.

jayb

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Re: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2017, 08:07:53 PM »
Actually dyno horsepower is the truth (provided the dyno is calibrated accurately), but the STP data that most people refer to is corrected to sea level and 60 degrees Fahrenheit.  These are ideal conditions not often found in reality.  A good dyno report will also show the "raw" horsepower numbers, before the correction factor.  These are the numbers that will reflect the actual power produced by the engine, under the weather conditions found in the dyno cell.  And of course, every racetrack situation will be different, because altitude will affect the barometric pressure, hotter or higher humidity weather will reduce the engine's horsepower output, etc.   The car will definitely slow down or speed up due to the weather conditions and altitude of the track...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jgkurz

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Re: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2017, 09:12:37 AM »
Hi folks, I took some time to better analyze my results and may have found some room for improvement.

I plan to address the following for a bit more power.

- Remove 3.5"to 3" reducer on collectors. My exhaust is 3" so I thought I'd need to transition welded to my collectors. Instead I created a v-band section with the 3" transition. At the strip I can easily remove the section so my collectors flow at the intended 3.5".
 
- Change oil pump to standard volume. My oil pressure was too high on the dyno. I switched to a standard Melling pump from Precision Oil Pumps.

- Vacuum secondaries checked. I failed to check whether the secondaries were fully open on the dyno. I have adjustable diaphrams so I'll can make sure I get WOT.

- Jets. I need play with jets and air bleed to get the AFR's dialed in. The car will be very different from the dyno.




« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 10:33:14 PM by jgkurz »

jgkurz

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Re: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2018, 06:00:15 PM »
Quick update. I ran the car on a DynoJet chassis dyno and confirmed the same AFR's as I saw on the the SuperFlow engine dyno. The driver side cylinder bank was a full point too rich vs the passenger side. Just like on the SuperFlow dyno, peak power was at 5600rpm. We ran the engine a bit higher on the DynoJet dyno. Power dipped after 5600 as we expected, but surprisingly it started to climb a bit again until the valves floated at 6300. I am going to put in a bit stronger valve springs, re-jet then try again.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 06:15:47 PM by jgkurz »

Rory428

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Re: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2018, 09:25:19 PM »
I just came across this post, since Craig Bloom did the dynoing, can I assume that you live in the Pacific Northwest?  What type of car and drivetrain are you using, and where will you be racing the car? I mostly race at Mission Raceway, but usually amke at least 1 race per year at Pacific near Seattle, Bremerton, and Woodburn Or. Be cool to see you and the car at the track sometime.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. a;; stock 332 2 barrel2 speed FordOMatic

jgkurz

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Re: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2018, 10:06:44 AM »
I just came across this post, since Craig Bloom did the dynoing, can I assume that you live in the Pacific Northwest?  What type of car and drivetrain are you using, and where will you be racing the car? I mostly race at Mission Raceway, but usually amke at least 1 race per year at Pacific near Seattle, Bremerton, and Woodburn Or. Be cool to see you and the car at the track sometime.

Hi Rory, Craig is a friend of mind and a skilled machinist. He has worked on my stuff for years. On top of that, he is an accomplished NHRA class racer which is probably how you know him. It's a small world. I live in the Portland, OR area so Woodburn is my home track. My car is a typical street/strip setup and not a dedicated race car. It's 69 Q code candy apple red Mach 1 with the above engine and a custom 4R70W trans. It's got a 31 spline 9 in with a new TracLok and 4.11 gears. The car isn't legal under 11.50 which is fine since the car probably won't do that given it's weight @ 3625lbs. I run 275/60-15 MT drag radials which is the best I can get under the stock wheel wells. The suspension isn't that special other than good shocks, delron shackels and Caltracs. For a street/strip car, it is a lot of fun which was really the only goal.

Will you be at any of the 2018 events at Woodburn?


-John



 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 11:02:27 AM by jgkurz »

TimeWarpF100

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Re: My first FE - 488ci Dyno results
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2018, 11:30:41 PM »
Quick update. I ran the car on a DynoJet chassis dyno and confirmed the same AFR's as I saw on the the SuperFlow engine dyno. The driver side cylinder bank was a full point too rich vs the passenger side. Just like on the SuperFlow dyno, peak power was at 5600rpm. We ran the engine a bit higher on the DynoJet dyno. Power dipped after 5600 as we expected, but surprisingly it started to climb a bit again until the valves floated at 6300. I am going to put in a bit stronger valve springs, re-jet then try again.

Very cool! Curious what it made on chassis Dyno?
Have a similar setup in my ‘66 F100 and was hoping 475 rwhp
But that may not happen.