More on the "small FE" idea....

[plovett]

The world needs crazy people.  Otherwise we'd all be driving LS powered hotrods.   

[mbrunson427]

Yep, that is the rod.   Now, if a person turboed the small engine......that would be the way to go, and a modified 361 truck crank............

I promise I'm going to do this. I've been too busy spending my Dad and Uncle's money on their FE builds rather than spending my own (which is a much smarter way to approach the hobby  ). The engine I have brainstormed is basically the same bore/stroke as a 340 Mopar. My goal is probably unimpressive to most who visit this site, but I want to build a gas sipper engine that still has plenty of power on-tap when you hit the pedal.

I have a few cars to sell, a 390 to put in a Galaxie, and a 428 to put in my Dads Mustang before the turbo project can take place.

Here's the recipe that I posted on a different thread:

I've had a similar thought going through my head as this and Brent's build.......only with some changes.

~Run a standard 390 block, 4.06 bore or so.
~361T steel crank, offset ground to hopefully a 3.3" stroke (I'm not sure how much those cranks can take).
~Combination would be somewhere between 340 and 350 cubes
~Long rods, 6.8" or even 7.1" if the pistons aren't crazy
~Proport Edelbrock heads, ported with very small ports
~Not sure what intake, fuel injection though
~Turbo

The goal would be to make a 500 horse gas sipper motor that could go in my Galaxie for road trip use, and maybe even the power tour? The gas mileage would be the most paramount design consideration, power output would be secondary.

I like seeing this small displacement stuff, it keeps my mind churning.

[abyars]

I think it is cool that there is interest in small cube FEs.  I thought I would share a neat combo with the group.  I have two of these in-process at the moment.  One with H304P budget pistons, and one with my custom CP Bullet "390" pistons.  I used 351M-400 rods.  Strong, available, and inexpensive.  They are safe to 600 hp in past testing.  The width is very close.  The 3.5 stroke crank is turned down to 2.310, and offset ground to 3.625 stroke.  A touch-up at the cheeks for the width, and a nice radius, and really a nice combo.  It uses a 1.760 c/h 390 piston, 6.58 rod, 3.625 stroke.  380 high rpm-capable, all economy and available stuff, and it comes out 10.152 deck height.  I am working on a Small bore Pro Port head, that may end up being a small bore casting collaberation with BBM down the road, after some R&D.  I have one already with a CNC program for Super Stock 352s, but I need to adjust the flange location to a stock MR much like my "Street Pro Port".  The head will have 145 CC runners, 2.09 intake valve, and 315 cfm.  The exhaust will be the exhaust I already have with a 1.57 valve and 230 cfm capability.  Money saved on the shortblock, without having to buy " custom" pistons and costly machining of BBC rod adaptations can be spent on a killer bolt-on head for small bores.  At 2.09/1.600 valve sizes, and an efficient chamber, my plan is an affordable, killer performance, small bore head, and an economical and efficient 380-ish cube combo with parts that don't break the bank, or confuse the machinist!

The small head will also be VERY good for 4.125 and 4.250 strokers in street duty cars, trucks, and 4x4s.  Lots of FEs out there that all these big-ported cylinder heads have forgotten.  The small head will make a torque beast out of any 352/390 based engine,  strokers included.  I will post in the dyno section when these are done.  One will get a mild hydraulic roller, the other a solid roller bumpstick and 11:1.  Stay tuned!

Neat builds!  I'm anxiously awaiting the torque numbers.

[Joey120373]

I'm excited to see how these heads turn out.
I have held off deciding on heads  for a couple months because Blair mentioned he might be doing something like this.

Mine will not be a small motor though, 520-537 ci for a dayly driver F250.
315cfm should support the HP i am hoping to get, but those small cross section ports aught to make some rediculouse torque numbers. If he uses the BBM head as a starting point, even better. I like the combustion chamber and plug location on the BBM heads a lot more than the EDs, though I'm sure Blairs regular Proports have a much better cumbustion chamber than what edelbrock offers.

I'm hoping to build a similar, but larger version of this fine motor:

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2809.0

With a slightly larger cam and a bit more compression. I don't plan on doing any heavy towing, just joyriding around town and messing with the kids, and all the noisy black smoke billowing obnoxious diesels that are everywhere.

[ericwevans]

I'll have a small build soon and will document it soon.  It will be a fairly budget build though, 372ci (4.110 x 3.5), 10.5:1, custom cam, somewhere around 290 adv & .580 lift, stock home ported head castings, thinking a Weiand 351C Tunnel Ram on Jay's adapter and dual 500 CFM Edelbrock Thunder AVS carbs.

I'm still kicking around if I can spin 6.54 rods to 6500RPM.  I am considering BBC rods but that will up the cost significantly.  Should be starting early December, hopefully completing in April.

[TomP]

My 332 thinks your plan is a huge engine.

Since it looks like i'm doomed to keep my stupid wagon I have been fixing it up, did a whole load of welding to replace the floors .
 I plan to keep the 332 since it is worthless to sell and I don't have space to store it. I'd stick on a bunch of parts I've got laying around that may be way overkill on less than a 390. I made up some 1 7/8" tri-Y headers when a 390 was in the car. I've got that solid cam and the Holley Street Dominator still. Since that may not be slushbox-friendly I may have to scare up clutch pedals and linkage. Tranny may actually be a Toyota six speed if the one I was offered is still available.
 Nothing to ruin the pretty good gas mileage but something to help the dismal power.

[ericwevans]

I'll be interested in hearing how it goes.  If you take the overall weight of an FE out of the picture, I just keep looking at these small engines and thinking, they've got a small block bore and stroke but big block heads.     I've got to think that they have the same power potential, if not better, than a 302 or 351.

[chris401]

Speed Pro makes a truck 361 piston. According to there specs it has a 21.795 cc dish.

https://m.summitracing.com/parts/slp-h994p?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-sealed-power&gclid=COun6uDoy88CFQ6taQodfTMP6A

Pistons weigh 907g with a pin height of 1.882 Here is the specifications Federal Mogul gave me. See if I missed something on calculating the dish cc.

1st: 3.320 diameter by .045 deep
2nd: 2.524 diameter by .188 deep.
=21.795cc

Anyone know how to double check the math?

Apparently the transition starts at the widest point and goes inward. The starting point was what I was unsure of. I spoke with a different tech and got the correct specs. According to Federal Mogul the H994P has a 16.02 cc dish.

[blykins]

There's nothing really "big block" about a factory FE head....at least the ones that came on 352/360/390 engines.  A GT40P head off of a 302 out of a 2000 Ford Explorer would come within a few cfm of most of them. 

[Joe-JDC]

GT-40 P intake flow 184-189 cfm stock.  C6AE-r/R 220-232 cfm stock 2.020-2.030 intake valve.  Joe-JDC

[blykins]

Just going off of Stan Weiss' site for quick reference....GT40P's are doing 190-195, GT40X are around 220-230.  C1's are doing 230's, C4's are doing 230's, C8's and C6FE heads, 200-210.   Boss 302 and Cleveland 4V heads are in the 270's.  So if you compared that GT40P head to some of the C8 heads, they are certainly close to each other.

Regardless, my point is that a factory FE cylinder head is certainly not a big power-maker and we all understand that....they are not like "other" big block head offerings....

[My427stang]

Regardless, my point is that a factory FE cylinder head is certainly not a big power-maker and we all understand that....they are not like "other" big block head offerings....

Hard to dispute that, 200 cfm for the vast majority of surviving heads out there, 230 for the best non-CJ, non-427, of course they have decent potential, a common FE was never known for its breathing

[blykins]

My goal was not to make fun of the FE, but I wasn't as diplomatic as I should have been either...

However, my reply was supposed to have been an innocent aim towards eric.....a small bore FE is pretty close to a small block in terms of bore and stroke, but the heads are not typical of what we think of when we think of big block heads.....BBF's, BBC's, etc.....or even some factory SBF heads either (Ford really knocked one out of the park with the 351C head...)

[chris401]

On a street engine you don't want to get too hung up on flow numbers. For a street driven carburerated engine or a mild small cubic engine you want fuel atomization and velocity. Keeping fuel suspended from idle to 3000 rpm is what gives your vehicle street manners. Take a look at the designs of the fuel injected intakes vs a carbutated intake. A fuel injector will spray a mist close to the head, given that you can see how Ford can get away with making a dedicated fuel injection head. The same large port head used on the street and a high flowing performance head.

[ericwevans]

I guess my thought is more to non-cubic-money heads as well and of course 40 years of development has left the FE behind.  And I understand that Cleveland and 385 series heads are much better than the FE, I'm mainly just looking at valve sizes alone compared to standard SBF heads and doing some bench racing.  I have no real world evidence to back that up (yet ).  Part of hot-rodding, I have a theory, now I need to go prove it.  Stay tuned, I'll document what I'm doing as I go along.