Author Topic: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas  (Read 11476 times)

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AlanCasida

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I have been mulling over putting a 6-871 supercharger on the 452(yes, FE !!) that is going in my 65 Mustang. My motor currently has a static comp of around 9 to 1 using Aries dished pistons and OEM MR heads. I would want to use one to make power, not just to look cool. Is that too much to run on pump gas. I wouldn't want to underdrive it a bunch as I feel that kind of defeats the purpose on having one. Thanks; guys. 

fekbmax

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2016, 09:37:31 PM »
N/M
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 01:25:49 AM by fekbmax »
Keith.  KB MAX Racing.

jayb

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2016, 10:56:31 PM »
I think 9:1 is too high for pump gas and any significant amount of boost.  A Roots type supercharger adds a lot of heat to the intake charge, which will make it more detonation prone, and with that CR I think you'd be asking for trouble with pump gas.  I'd be looking at 8:1 if you want to run 8+ pounds of boost on pump gas.  My centrifugally supercharged FE ran 8.5:1, 15-17 pounds of boost, a good ignition retard when the boost came up, and it still needed 110 at the track.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2016, 12:30:32 AM »
Jay is right.  8.0:1 is about the max you can run if you want to push 6-8 lbs of boost with a positive displacement blower.

Here's a chart that gives a really rough estimate of equivalent static compression for boost and engine compression ratio:



From this article:

http://www.jegs.com/tech-articles/superchargers.html

Screw-type Eaton blowers are a bit more efficient and can tolerate slightly more engine C/R, but the above info gets you in the ballpark.

- Bill
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

cjshaker

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2016, 09:36:24 AM »
Wow, that really puts it into perspective when some of these guys are pushing 25-30+ lbs of boost on turbo engines. Granted, they're intercooled, but still...
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
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'37 Ford Coupe

cammerfe

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2016, 12:07:16 PM »
Don't overlook the possibilities inherent in 'chemical intercooling'. Setting up a system that uses a Hobbs switch to turn on a methanol spray as the boost comes up will do wonders. I have successfully run 11 to 1 and 20+ pounds of boost with such a system. A boost-referenced regulator and a pump capable of putting out enough more than the boost pressure are both necessary.

KS

bill_396

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2016, 12:20:49 PM »
What if you ran it on E85 only? The alcohol has a cooling effect besides the race gas level octane. Never really seen that discussed with regard to a Roots boost.

Autoholic

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2016, 02:10:25 PM »
E85 works well in any boosted application, for various reasons. 1, E85 has a colder burn so the cylinder doesn't get as hot. 2, E85 has a broad lambda range of roughly 0.71 to 0.87, or in AFR, about 7.0:1 all the way to 8.5:1. When E85 has a stoich at 9.77:1, that's saying a lot about the effective range you can run it at. 3, You're also running ~30% more fuel than compared to gasoline or gasohol, so you're going to be able to cool down the cylinder a lot better through heat transfer from the cylinder to the fuel. 4, E85 has a higher resistance to detonation that allows for more flexibility in compression. The only real downside to E85 is that you have to use more fuel as a result of the stoich AFR. For an engine built to go fast though, it's a decent option and cheaper than running methanol.

If you want to run E85 though, it's best to design the engine to ONLY run on E85. This is where flex fuel vehicles suck, in order to run both E85 and regular gas, the engine has to be a compromise between the two. So, I'd recommend choosing a specific fuel to run and stick to that fuel if you really want to get the most out of that fuel. E85 sucks for naturally aspired vehicles, you can't really extract the potential out of the fuel to make up for the increased consumption in fuel. Unless maybe you used like a 14:1 CR and didn't run a cam with a high ICA that would bleed off the pressure. Which would destroy an engine running typical pump gas.

Since we're talking about fuel and FE's, does anyone know if it's ever been tried to create a diesel FE? Maybe that could be Jay's next SOHC project.... imagine the torque....
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 04:39:46 PM by Autoholic »
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bill_396

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2016, 03:32:09 PM »
So based on the chart Bill Conley posted on E85 you could run 8 plus pounds of boost at 9 to 1 static. Don't know how available it is to everyone but here in West Michigan they brew it locally. Next next FE to run will be E85 only.

Autoholic

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2016, 03:47:29 PM »
I don't know the exact recommended max static CR for E85. Also, your static CR isn't all that important. What is really important to pay attention to is your dynamic compression ratio. You could have a really high static CR and use an aggressive cam with a late intake closing angle to bleed off the pressure to prevent detonation. You only start building pressure once all the valves are closed. I would look at this from a dynamic compression ratio and dynamic cylinder pressure point of view. Get some feedback on what cylinder pressures people have been able to hit with E85, besides what CR they have run. Also remember that boost is addicting. It's probably better to just stick with a low CR setup and just crank up the boost. It's easy to turn down (or up) the boost once you know how the engine will behave. It's a lot harder to change the static compression ratio.

If you were building a NA engine, your choices that impact the static CR would be far more important. With FI, it's probably better to stay low and compensate later. If any of our wise men disagree with this, please correct me.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 04:14:06 PM by Autoholic »
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Leny Mason

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2016, 10:09:18 AM »
Hi I am building a injected 8/71 427 Cammer with a 4 1/8 crank my altitude is between 4 to 6 thousand feet so that should make a difference as far  close to 9 , and the E85 stuff I know nothing about can you get it anywhere or is it hard to find it sounds kinda cool. Leny Mason 

Autoholic

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2016, 10:36:07 AM »
Leny, it depends on your area. Some places E85 is at most gas stations. Other areas, it hardly exists.

http://www.ethanolretailer.com/flex-fuel-station-finder
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Leny Mason

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2016, 01:49:05 PM »
Hi Autoholic It looks like Great falls Mt is the closest place to buy it , 100 miles away do you think the altitude  makes and difference . Leny Mason

Autoholic

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2016, 04:16:00 PM »
Altitude always makes a difference on an internal combustion engine. The density of the air will dictate how much boost you put into a setup. The good thing about forced induction is that you can compensate for the density of the air at higher altitude. That's all a supercharger or turbo does, it increases the density of the air. If you use the ideal gas law, PV=nRT. n and R are constants, the only thing that changes will be pressure, volume and temperature. Consider volume constant in this case, and you're left with pressure and temperature. The initial pressure is that of the atmosphere where you are, and the same for temp. The final pressure will be atmosphere plus whatever your boost pressure is. You solve for temp, that will be the intake air temp the engine sees. Naturally, the lower in elevation you are, the less work the supercharger will have to do to reach the same pressure, lowering your IAT's. The more you compress air, the hotter that air will be. With an old school blower, you don't have an intercooler so you'd have to inject something cold to bring down temps, be that methanol, water or nitrous. You could theoretically create a custom blower plenum that has an intercooler, not sure if it has ever been done for the FE.

If the temp is 75 *F outside, at sea level atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi, 4000 ft the atmospheric pressure is ~12.75 psi and at 6000 ft atmospheric pressure is ~11.86 psi. So in order to compensate for elevation at 4000 ft, the boost would have to increase ~1.95 psi and at 6000 ft, the boost would have to increase ~2.84 psi. When you consider the fact that you monitor boost pressure by at least 1 psi if not smaller, that is important. At 4000 ft, you've lost 13% of your initial pressure and at 6000 ft, 19%. The temperature outside plays a huge role as well, the colder it is the more dense your air will be as well as having colder IAT's.

I should note that I haven't discussed how the fuel will impact all this. The more fuel you inject, the colder the incoming charge will be. If you were to try and create an intercooler for an old school blower setup, you'd be restricted to either mechanical or electrical fuel injection at the individual runners. The intercooler would trap too much fuel, which would be dangerous besides making it hard to tune.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 04:36:10 PM by Autoholic »
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Leny Mason

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Re: Maximum static compression for a supercharged motor on pump gas
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2016, 10:14:57 PM »
The guy that is helping me set this up thinks that 9 would be better so when cruising and the throttle plate is only open a bit I will have better power when going up our mountain passes  when the blower is not working hard. Thanks for your input. the 85 fuel may be hard to find here I would not mind using it. Leny Mason