Poll

If the parts described in the message below became available, which would you consider purchasing?

Standard aluminum 427 block
30 (27.8%)
Raised cam / spread bore block
4 (3.7%)
New FE heads / intake setup for standard FE block
21 (19.4%)
New FE heads and intake setup for raised cam / spread bore block
2 (1.9%)
More than one of the above
51 (47.2%)

Total Members Voted: 99

Author Topic: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...  (Read 76342 times)

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cammerfe

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #120 on: May 28, 2016, 12:18:47 PM »
I had the "paddle shifter" 6 speed automatic, and I did not like it.  My son has one in his BMW turbo, and loves it.  I guess it is a generational thing.  I found my "paddle shifter" slow to upshift, and I wound up over-revving or hitting the fuel shut-off before it would shift.  Same with the slapstick manual shift automatics in all the trucks, they will not shift when you do.  So, my vote is still TKO style bellhousing and three pedals.  Joe-JDC

Joe, paddle shifters are, of course, actually electric switches controlling little servos that move the valves in the valve body and, therefore, do the shifting. My ECTA Lincoln LS has the same system except that the switches are attached to the lever in the console. In order to get crisp instant shifts, it was necessary to reprogram the transmission part of the ECU. Now it works just fine. Part of what I did when reprogramming was to raise the line pressure moderately.

KS

jayb

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #121 on: May 28, 2016, 01:52:51 PM »
So less material should = cheaper, but then I suppose there would be development costs. If you are targeting the mainstream then your sales numbers should be higher. How many people do you think we have on these forums? Now think outside the forum. Seems like 2000 should be attainable. Are FE powered vehicles really that small?

I think the issue is not whether or not 2000 blocks could be sold, but rather how long it would take to sell them. Selling at a lower price, it would take a long time to recoup costs from such a major investment. Typically, only big companies can do that sort of thing. Now if you could sell those 2000 blocks in one or maybe 2 years, that would be different. You'd probably recoup your costs within half of that timeframe.

When a company first releases their block or head, such as BBM did, you'll get a rush of sales, partly because a lot of guys have been looking, waiting or are just jumping on the opportunity while it's there. Once that initial rush is over, sales will probably drop pretty drastically and even out at a much lower rate.

I'm not a business man, so that was all guessing, but it seems to be logical.

Doug, you should be a business man because you are exactly right on this.  A couple of my own examples:  When my book was released in 2010, I sold 450 in the first month. Since then, I am still selling them but only average 10-15 a month.  I re-couped my publishing costs on the first 400 books, but the costs of all that race gas, intake gaskets, sealer, etc. took me until 1000 books to recover.  Never mind getting paid for all my labor.  Don't get me wrong, I don't regret any of it, because I had a great time doing all those tests.  But as a business proposition, it would be a loser.

It is basically the same story on my intake adapters, I had a list of more than 100 people who wanted them and it took me quite some time to fill those orders.  As I went along building them some unexpected costs came up, and it ended up taking me 130 adapters to recover the tooling and machining costs associated with them.  Now I'm caught up on my list for the medium riser adapters, and selling them on ebay in addition to selling them directly, and they go out the door at about one per month.  So I'm making a little money on them, but nowhere hear enough to compensate for the hundreds of hours I put into that project.  Again its a good thing I enjoyed doing it, because as a pure business proposition they are a loser.

Now let's look at this run of 2000 cast iron FE blocks.  If the sale price is $1500, let's say that the cost of manufacturing, including amortizing the tooling over 2000 blocks, is $1000 per block.  To commit to getting 2000 done, that is an investment of 2 MILLION dollars up front.  I'm as FE-crazy as they come, but I would run screaming from a deal like that, even if I could afford it (which I can't).  Maybe you could sell 250 in the first year, but I'll bet you'd be selling 50 per year thereafter, and it would take you 35 years to sell them all.  From a gross profit standpoint you would make a million bucks, IF you could sell them all, over 35 years.  No guarantees on that one.  Meanwhile, you'd make more money investing in Treasury notes, and you wouldn't have to do any work.  The whole project makes no sense, even for someone like me who isn't looking to make their living on it.

We have to recognize that the size of the FE market is such that custom parts are going to be more expensive than they are for a small block Chev or LS engine.  Anybody who thinks different is welcome to make the big investment themselves, and see how that turns out!
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone Joe

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #122 on: May 28, 2016, 02:02:33 PM »
Do you think any of the bigger kit car manufacturers for which the FE was original equipment would want to partner with you on something like this?  Just thinking out loud, but that might be a way to increase throughput to recover the higher NRE costs like blocks.

westcoastgalaxie

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #123 on: May 28, 2016, 02:06:41 PM »
Fair enough, I would have to do my own market research to know for sure. That is business 101. But I'll take your word on it, I know nothing about costs involved. I think the key to selling high volume entry level stuff is distribution figure out how to get the general public to see the offering in parts catalogues and major online vendors and you are guaranteed to sell more.

When you guys start getting your new 427 blocks please contact me about your old junk. I would be happy with a 428 or 390 block in good condition. 30 or less overbore when ready to run. The closer to std bore the better. In the Denver area as I don't want mess with shipping. Of course no cracks, sleeves, or other problems to fix.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 02:10:55 PM by westcoastgalaxie »

e philpott

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #124 on: May 28, 2016, 03:21:41 PM »
I didn't vote on anything , right now I'm happy with what I got ..... that said I ran 2 kids in jr dragsters for 10 years and if they ( kids) ever wanted to go RED (rear engine dragster) I would probably at some point want a reliable 1100 hp dragster , then I would be a player , we have been out of the jr league for a few years and no takers at the moment , my self I don't want anything more than what I got and have going  ......  but for the new engine seems like when you get over 1000 hp naturally aspirated there is not a whole lot of difference money wise between any make of engine from any brand , so in that case I would rather have some FE valve covers on my RED if we ever get to that point

FElony

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #125 on: May 28, 2016, 04:45:26 PM »
I had the "paddle shifter" 6 speed automatic, and I did not like it.  My son has one in his BMW turbo, and loves it.  I guess it is a generational thing.  I found my "paddle shifter" slow to upshift, and I wound up over-revving or hitting the fuel shut-off before it would shift.  Same with the slapstick manual shift automatics in all the trucks, they will not shift when you do.  So, my vote is still TKO style bellhousing and three pedals.  Joe-JDC

Joe, that has nothing to do with the shifter. That is the factory programming. It's exactly why I specified MANUAL valve body, so there is no lag going up or down.

It isn't a ricer thing, either. The fastest and most expensive domestic and euro cars have fast-reacting paddles in them. Listen guys, I have more top loaders in and out of cars than anyone here. I have more autos, too. Is it so beyond the scope of reason to want to have something DIFFERENT? For FUN? Not yelling at you, Joe. You da man, the Duke of Windsor. Just frustrated. Dot had a great idea. Put the optional pattern on the standard block, and quit suggesting killer trans combos that should be behind the big-inch racers. Apples and oranges, again.

FElony

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #126 on: May 28, 2016, 04:59:48 PM »
I have never researched it any further than my Transmission manuals saying that  ......... Newton meters seems to be the closest

Wanna know why the Coyote cars are so quick? 4.17 first gear in the 6R80. Think about that for a second. Not enough balls? You know there is a 6R140 behind the 6.2? Of course you do, Eric, because you know more than most people give you credit for. Just sayin'.

Think of a nice peaky winder with that gear spread. NOT a drag racer, guys.

plovett

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #127 on: May 28, 2016, 06:43:54 PM »
I love all of these ideas.  I hope all of them come to fruition. That said, I say use the KISS principle.  Keep It Simple Stupid. Obviously, you are the opposite of stupid, Jay.  You are intelligent, educated, motivated, and industrious.  I'm not sucking up to you. I'm telling it like it is.  I think we are extremely lucky to have you as an FE enthusiast.

So, what the FE hobby needs most, in my opinion, is a practically priced (and available), standard dimension, USA made, aftermarket block (iron or aluminum).  It's the keystone for the engine.  And I'm saying that as "head guy".    ::)

That's all there is to it.  Do that and you have done more than any FE guy in the grand scheme of things. Edelbrock and Barry have the heads covered for 90% of the range.   Do MORE than that, and it's all gravy. 

JMO,

paulie
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 09:17:24 PM by plovett »

Cyclone03

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #128 on: May 28, 2016, 10:29:44 PM »
I voted several days ago,then I started thinking.....
So now I have questions.
would the raised cam work with the available intakes (RPM for example) the push rod angle will change correct?
could the re-centered block be used in a less than all out engine,again with an Ed,or Survival head?
I know it seems dumb to use a "full race" block in a mild(ish) build but if the same casting can be used as a base for a light weight FE
then the market should be larger.
With the marketing threads above I cant see anybody loving FEs enough to drop a few $mil on one block much less two. But maybe one block that can go from 427,428 to 550 inchs would have a larger market?

Now features I'd like to see in an aluminum block:
O ring seal the water pump, O ring seal the oil galleys,core holes (freeze plugs) and cam plug.
Do away with the oil filter adapter just thread the side of the block for -10 strait threads,another O ring.

Use an alloy that has minimal thermal expansion. 
 Rib the heck out of it.
Lance H

Joe-JDC

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #129 on: May 28, 2016, 11:00:11 PM »
I had the "paddle shifter" 6 speed automatic, and I did not like it.  My son has one in his BMW turbo, and loves it.  I guess it is a generational thing.  I found my "paddle shifter" slow to upshift, and I wound up over-revving or hitting the fuel shut-off before it would shift.  Same with the slapstick manual shift automatics in all the trucks, they will not shift when you do.  So, my vote is still TKO style bellhousing and three pedals.  Joe-JDC

Joe, that has nothing to do with the shifter. That is the factory programming. It's exactly why I specified MANUAL valve body, so there is no lag going up or down.

It isn't a ricer thing, either. The fastest and most expensive domestic and euro cars have fast-reacting paddles in them. Listen guys, I have more top loaders in and out of cars than anyone here. I have more autos, too. Is it so beyond the scope of reason to want to have something DIFFERENT? For FUN? Not yelling at you, Joe. You da man, the Duke of Windsor. Just frustrated. Dot had a great idea. Put the optional pattern on the standard block, and quit suggesting killer trans combos that should be behind the big-inch racers. Apples and oranges, again.

I have a JPT C-4 with reverse manual valve body, trans-brake, and when I move the selector, it moves instantly.  I also have a C-6 with the similar workings, wide ratio, and rollerized, etc.. It shifts instantly.  I understand the higher line pressures, leaving out check balls, etc., and it is still FUN even with only three forward gears.  Anyway, my transmission shifts quicker than I can react now-a-days!  I have to try to release the button on the second yellow just to get close to a .020 or less.  LOL   Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

FElony

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #130 on: May 29, 2016, 12:27:18 AM »
I have a JPT C-4 with reverse manual valve body, trans-brake, and when I move the selector, it moves instantly.  I also have a C-6 with the similar workings, wide ratio, and rollerized, etc.. It shifts instantly.  I understand the higher line pressures, leaving out check balls, etc., and it is still FUN even with only three forward gears.  Anyway, my transmission shifts quicker than I can react now-a-days!  I have to try to release the button on the second yellow just to get close to a .020 or less.  LOL   Joe-JDC

Somehow I wound up with 23 C4's. Argh.

Here's a fun video in a new Charger Scat Pack. If you don't want to watch all of it, go to 4:25 and see what a proper factory automatic is like. Vroom vroom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP1WqxERb_U

mike7570

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #131 on: May 29, 2016, 12:45:00 AM »

I have a JPT C-4 with reverse manual valve body, trans-brake, and when I move the selector, it moves instantly.  I also have a C-6 with the similar workings, wide ratio, and rollerized, etc.. It shifts instantly.  I understand the higher line pressures, leaving out check balls, etc., and it is still FUN even with only three forward gears.  Anyway, my transmission shifts quicker than I can react now-a-days!  I have to try to release the button on the second yellow just to get close to a .020 or less.  LOL   Joe-JDC
[/quote]

2nd yellow? Joe your car is not reacting very quickly. I doubt your much slower than a normal human which means your car is taking about .075 to break the beam to get a .020 light leaving on second yellow on a 5 tenths countdown tree.  Unless your personal reaction times can be measured with a sundial something is wrong with your car.

Katz427

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #132 on: May 29, 2016, 07:59:09 AM »
I hope my reply helps here. Despite what people think torque converter multiplicaion is really the difference in speed between the turbine and impeller in the converter. Impeller is connected to the crankshaft so as the speed of the turbine matches the impeller the torque multiplication becomes a non issue. A good reason why the idea that the 6r80 or any transmission does not use the torque converter muliplication in the equation. What is used in all new automatics of the Simpson design are lockup torque converters. The converter has a clutch mechanism to provide lockup and this clutch is the limiting factor.   A 6r80 can easily hold 800 n/m torque but  the limit is the torque converter clutch lockup. Diesels are especially hard on a lockup converter. Usually the converter is not locked in the lower gears. So the lockup clutch does not activate until the  4th in a 6 speed. This saves the converter some of the stress.

Katz427

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #133 on: May 29, 2016, 08:22:45 AM »
Sorry Jay! I know this thread started about 427 blocks and cylinder heads, and yes I am still looking for a 427 block. The heads would be nice, but the blocks just are not there or anywhere. I can find .060 + blocks! Maybe sleeving to a 4.125 bore as some have suggested is another option but not for the those looking for big cubic inches. Heck, even an aluminum big block Merlin is near $5k at todays prices.

jayb

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Re: New FE Block, Heads, and Intakes on the horizon...
« Reply #134 on: May 29, 2016, 08:48:41 AM »
Sorry Jay! I know this thread started about 427 blocks and cylinder heads, and yes I am still looking for a 427 block.
No need to apologize, all this stuff is of interest and related to blocks or the heads - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC