Oil Return tins

[Drew Pojedinec]

I can't see an oil pump creating a flat hp draw across rpm.
I'm certain at 800 rpm vs 2500rpms vs 7000rpm it's drastically different.

In the case of my engine, lets imagine there is only going to be a 5hp difference in most situations.... I can live with that, If I was building a race car I wouldn't have started with a 4200lb car.

[ScotiaFE]

I would think that once you are into the relief you have reached
max power draw and it would stay flat.

Bottom line is: All machines will fail because of a lack of oil.
Not too many because it's getting lots.

[jayb]

R-M's take on some of these issues.

http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-67-the-hidden-cost-of-free-horsepower/

Btw, their entire series of engine articles is excellent reading.

That's a good article, and backs up some of the reading I've been doing lately on oil viscosity and engine wear.  I've been running 20W-50 Valvoline VR1 for years, but am currently switching to 10W-30 VR1.  I thought I needed the 20W50 because I normally run looser on the bearing clearances than stock, but based on what I've been reading that is not the case, and a 10W cold oil will far out-lubricate a 20W at cold startup, which is where most engine wear occurs anyway.

[blykins]

Which one Howie?  I've got 2 all-aluminum FE's in the queue right now.  I'm willing to share dyno data with you, including both high volume and standard volume pump engines.   I think I also have some pictures of some bearings from some bracket race engines that have come back for a freshen-up.  That's the best data...

Not sure why you highlighted "your"....it's pretty well-established that I build engines for customers.   Essentially they are mine until the customer lays hands on them.   

[ChiefDanGeorge]

Is running a HV pump in a mild street engine worthwhile then? I think I am still going to get the heads modified for a restrictor and also open up the return, but I'm not sure if the added volume is really beneficial.

[blykins]

It depends on several variables.  For the average street engine with a factory style pan and decent bearing clearances, I would have to say no. 

I built a 482 for a forum member, BBM block, BBM heads, hydraulic roller, T&D rockers.  It was designed for a towing application, to pull a 10000 lb trailer behind his '65 F250.  It has a standard volume pump in it and works perfectly fine.  That engine was done by 5200 rpm and has 60 lbs of pressure cruising down the highway. 

[Drew Pojedinec]

I would think that once you are into the relief you have reached
max power draw and it would stay flat.

Hrm, didn't consider that, seems to make sense, tho you are still spinning the pump faster.  No matter, I'm sure it's minor.

George, my two vehicles currently run like this:
76 F100, 390 FE Standard oil pump.  Hot idle 15psi, hot cruise 40psi, WOT 65psi
63 Galaxie 429, HV oil pump.  Hot idle 50psi, hot cruise 65psi, WOT 85psi

I run 5w30 in both of them.  Oil samples report zero issues whatsoever.

[gdaddy01]

this is smoking my clutch trying to keep up reading you's guys knowledge . but thanks for the info   

[ScotiaFE]

Is running a HV pump in a mild street engine worthwhile then? I think I am still going to get the heads modified for a restrictor and also open up the return, but I'm not sure if the added volume is really beneficial.

This is the real info you need to make an informed choice.
There are 6 Melling oil pumps that will fit on an FE.
The minimum you should use is the "B" pump. It will give you the 60 + psi that you would want to see.
It uses the same spring as the HV pump.
I believe the standard volume pumps about 22 gals/min at 4000 rpm
And the HV pumps 25% more so about 27.5 gals/min.
And you only have 7 quarts it a regular system so. 
And you will be swinging a long stroke so it's your choice.


M-57 STD Volume Yellow Spring 40-45psi 1/4" Drive

M-57B Std Volume Brown/Plain Spring 60-65 psi 1/4" Drive

M-57HP Std Volume Big Blue Spring 100-110 psi 1/4" Drive

M-57HV High Volume Brown/Plain Spring 60-65 psi 1/4" Drive

M-57A Std Volume Brown/Plain Spring 60-65 psi 5/16" Drive

M-57AHV High Volume Brown/Plain Spring 60-65 psi 5/16" Drive



 

[ScotiaFE]

Which one Howie?  I've got 2 all-aluminum FE's in the queue right now.  I'm willing to share dyno data with you, including both high volume and standard volume pump engines.   I think I also have some pictures of some bearings from some bracket race engines that have come back for a freshen-up.  That's the best data...

Not sure why you highlighted "your"....it's pretty well-established that I build engines for customers.   Essentially they are mine until the customer lays hands on them.   

I'll go down that track with you again Brent.
I doubt Jay wants me to though.

[cjshaker]

Jay, I wonder if you noticed that in that article, twice he referenced oil for cooling the springs as being essential?

I've stopped reading all the debates on oils, simply because I've got enough of my own experience to satisfy myself. I run 10w-30 in all my year-round mild street engines. You don't want anything thicker than a 10w for cold starts in the winter. If it's going to pull heavy loads or is built for street performance, I step up to 15w-40 because of the added heat and bearing loads. If it's a hot street engine or is being raced, in other words only warm weather, bigger clearances and very high bearing loads, I stick with 20w-50 for the cushion. Only one time in my life did I have bearing problems, and that wasn't oil related. I've never had wear problems of any kind that were associated with oil, only normal wear due to age. That's good enough for me, and I've driven FEs day in and day out, almost exclusively, for the last 30 years.

Why worry about 5-10hp (max) unless you're shooting for ETs such as heads up racing? The risk and reduction in lifespan on parts isn't worth it.

[jayb]

Jay, I wonder if you noticed that in that article, twice he referenced oil for cooling the springs as being essential?

I didn't see that, Doug.  Here's what it says:

" Lightweight racing oils are also formulated not to cling to metal surfaces, reducing drag on rings and other internal components. "

" Thin oil doesn’t adhere well to the valve spring coils, so the resulting high temperature affects spring life. "

The oils we are talking about are not the "sewing machine oils" that he is describing, and certainly they will cling to the spring.  He is also talking about 10,000+ RPM Pro-Stock engines, with over 1000 pounds of spring pressure on the nose of the cam.  Which I think is also outside the scope of our discussion.

I have seen claims made that the valve springs on a normal performance FE should be running in a bath of oil for cooling purposes.  I'm not buying it, and I don't think, after watching the oil splash through my clear valve covers on the dyno, that even with restrictors in the heads, there is any lack of oil on the springs.  Restricting oil to the heads keeps it in the pan, and I think that is far and away more important than any valve spring cooling considerations, even on a high horsepower FE.

[jayb]

I'll go down that track with you again Brent.
I doubt Jay wants me to though.

You're right about that, Howie 

[gdaddy01]

can read that stuff on the other forum

[Posi67]

Is a real issue as far as I'm concerned. They use a valve cover spray bar to cool spring in some applications but even a Drag car has the need for cooling oil. On my 454, I was having problems getting enough oil to the right front and left rear rockers to the point of burning up pushrods. These are the ones farthest away from the oil feed into the heads. Never did come to a conclusion why but eventually got enough oil there to save the pushrods.

After a season while checking valve spring pressures the only ones that came in low were the end pairs under the low oil spray. That's telling me something. As for the pressure argument, I doubt we'll ever get a consensus on that but I'm old and like to see good numbers on the gauge. I'm willing to give up some HP for that warm fuzzy feeling.