Author Topic: Oil Return tins  (Read 19812 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Qikbbstang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
    • View Profile
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2016, 12:18:38 AM »
Jay JMHO the 30 minutes at 3,000 ,,,is almost funny on overkill... I'd think the spring temps would stabilize as fast as the motor itself does. ,,,, any effect of heat from the springs heating will be so insignificant to other factors throughout the motor - just one example being the exhaust gasses flowing in the ports, that small item can really put some heat into a motor. Compare a spring to an exhaust port.....  You got to figure heat transfer's from the spring seat into the water jackets... For sure springs are pretty well isolated as far as their abilities to shed heat. You have metal to metal down into the head, through the oil and air as a mist.

 I recall seeing the effect of heat on valve spring pressures (charts) though I have no idea where it was and had no luck searching web. When you think about it I'd think simply heating a spring up in a spring tester should show the loss per added heat?......



Nope, that test was with a stock pan, not deep sump.  What I would envision for a spring test would be to run the engine at steady state for 30 minutes or so at 3000 RPM, and see how the spring temperature compared to the oil temp.  Then, run several dyno pulls to 7000 RPM and see what the spring temperature does.  Probably do this on a couple motors, one with mild spring pressure, and one with lots of lift and high spring pressure.  I think that would give a good picture of how much heat the valve springs actually see.  Also maybe Bill Conley can chime in one this if he sees it, but there is some minimum temperature where steel starts to fatigue more quickly, and as long as you stay below that, you aren't going to affect the life of the spring very much.  Maybe somebody else knows about this?

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5132
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2016, 06:49:52 AM »
It's been a few years since I had my materials/heat transfer/mechanical design courses, but temperature is most certainly a factor in fatigue and is a variable in fatigue equations.  That's about all I can say without whipping out a book or burning my brain's clutch up trying to remember those equations though...

Either way, things are a lot different now than they were 40-50 years ago.  Spring pressures in the 60's were 80-90 seat with 200-250 open.  Now we run 50-100 lbs over that even on mild flat tappet applications.  We also don't use umbrella seals anymore, we have positive stop seals, Viton seals, etc. that do a lot better job controlling the oil. 

On higher rpm applications, it's very common to see valve cover spray bars, and in Cup applications, it's common to see both the cam tunnel/lifter valley as well as the area under the valve covers flooded with oil.  Now obviously, none of us here are talking about circle track or Cup motors, but I would hesitate to say that oil up top is a bad thing unless you can't keep oil in the bottom....

However, my point is that I'm often reluctant to do things "the way Ford designed it in the 60's" just because the engines that we build these days don't resemble the engines from the 60's. 

FWIW, I've never used a drip rail.....or a valley pan.....or an oil slinger. 

However, I do work the drains in the heads, and in some cases, I will use some kind of restrictor.   Most of my engines now are oiled through the pushrods though, and the lifters meter the oil quite well in most cases.  I also use the Milodon/Moroso pans that are 7-8 quart capacity.

Another revelation that I'm migrating towards is that in most cases, a high volume/high pressure oil pump just isn't necessary.  I would base it on bearing clearances and the engine's purpose.  I can show you some bearings that came back from a season's worth of drag racing, with 55 psi on the gauge...I would have reused them.  Most guys want to see 70-80 psi on the gauge when they're in the gas, but pushing large volumes of oil at high pressures will rob horsepower. 

As Jay pointed out, a high volume pump (especially without restrictions) will pull large amounts of oil out of the pan.  If you're going to use a factory style pan with a HV pump, I would restrict, and run the windage tray with an extra quart of oil in the pan.

Drip rails will also play with the rocker arm geometry, so do your pushrod measuring with the setup you're going to run.   
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 07:29:54 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Drew Pojedinec

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2141
    • View Profile
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2016, 09:16:50 AM »
Well I'm certainly not going to argue any about more dyno testing! ;D ;D

Sure is hard to, when SOME people happen to have a dyno in their garage :P  hehehe

Quote
It's been a few years since I had my materials/heat transfer/mechanical design courses, but temperature is most certainly a factor in fatigue and is a variable in fatigue equations.  That's about all I can say without whipping out a book or burning my brain's clutch up trying to remember those equations though...

I know the feeling Brent, I've wasted so much brain matter with engineering studies that aren't used.
I really considered using a standard volume pump, but I really like HV pumps, then running oil that is slightly thinner than typical.  I know it wastes a slight amount of power, but it's decent insurance.

ScotiaFE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
  • Howie
    • View Profile
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2016, 10:15:00 AM »
Another revelation that I'm migrating towards is that in most cases, a high volume/high pressure oil pump just isn't necessary.  I would base it on bearing clearances and the engine's purpose.  I can show you some bearings that came back from a season's worth of drag racing, with 55 psi on the gauge...I would have reused them.  Most guys want to see 70-80 psi on the gauge when they're in the gas, but pushing large volumes of oil at high pressures will rob horsepower. 

How much horsepower?
Cause it's about .75 HP to drive a small pump and about 1 HP to drive a big pump.
That's what math says anyways.

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5132
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2016, 10:33:13 AM »
What math?   Even viscosity changes can be worth 10-15 hp.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 10:45:12 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

ScotiaFE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
  • Howie
    • View Profile
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2016, 10:46:09 AM »
Well I could show you, but you might burn your clutch out.
Here's a simple calculator for you.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/oil-pump-hp-calc.php

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5132
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2016, 10:54:45 AM »
My clutch was smoked a long time ago.

I'll refer you back to your own data from 3 years ago....

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1211.0

(First thing I learned in engineering school was that theory doesn't always match the results....)
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7564
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2016, 11:13:03 AM »
What math?   Even viscosity changes can be worth 10-15 hp.

Boy, I've never seen anything like that.  Tried 10W-40 dino oil vs. 10W-30 synthetic once, zero difference there...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5132
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2016, 11:19:28 AM »
Admittedly, I was talking extremes.....0W30 against a 20W-50 or similar.   

Again, we have to speak in generalities here, each engine has a myriad of different variables that play into the equation.  We can't apply the same factor to each engine or each scenario.....i.e. a "small" pump takes .75 hp and a "big pump" takes 1 hp. 

Bottom line is that generally speaking, high volume pumps can rob horsepower and guys tend to focus on big oil pressure numbers (or big flow numbers) as being paramount.  A lot of the time it's just not necessary.  Sometimes it is, but a lot of the time, it's not. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

ScotiaFE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
  • Howie
    • View Profile
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2016, 11:36:43 AM »
Correction
That's not my data.
I was just putting someone else's data into a thread.
My data is to run a windage tray and a HV pump.
Use a minimum of 10W40 oil and a really good filter.
Put a minimum of 6 quarts in the pan plus the filter.
If you can swing it get a bigger oil pan.
In all cases.
I don't believe the average FE guy should go with less.
We tend to use the engine in a spirited manner and even race on occasion.
They cost a lot.
I'll give up the 1 to 2  or as you say 10-15 HP (which I think is BS) for peace of mind.
You need all the protection you can get.

What's your data say Brent?

machoneman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3859
    • View Profile
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2016, 11:43:34 AM »
Heck, the oil itself can cause enough drag to kill valuable hp.

Not quite the same topic but long ago we pitted near many of the top Ford Pro Stockers while at the Grove, sometimes Rockford and once in awhile US 30 when it was still open. My 16 year old helper bro' James had a real talent for getting the racers like Glidden, Nicholson, Schartman and their helpers to talk to him while I was servicing my SBF Ford dragster. He came back one time with this tale.

It must have been Kaase he talked to as we figured out later but just before the match race finals at the Grove, all the rear gear fluid was drained out and about 1 quart of tranny fluid (think it was ATF) from the Lenco was drained. When he asked what the heck, he was told that they needed every bit of parasitic drag out to win the last race....and they did. Kind of extreme but heck, it didn't hurt anything.

Btw, Schartman's gal was a absolute ten and a real knockout and when she walked through the pits, everything stopped! Hah! 
Bob Maag

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5132
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2016, 11:48:40 AM »
My data says that every engine can't conform to the same rules.  Take a 428CJ with loose clearances and factory pan vs. an all-new, all-aluminum build with a 9 quart system.  You can't make generalities with this stuff. 

Data is data.  You posted it several years back and it's valid.  I see 5-8 hp swings there, which backs up the statement I made earlier (which BTW, didn't warrant a 60-minutes style investigation) that higher volume pumps rob horsepower.  I also made the statement that not everyone needs 80 psi oil pressures and HV pumps and I stand by that firmly based on all the different engines that I have in circulation. 

BTW, if you want to call my 10-15 hp estimate bull butter, then you can call David Reher and tell him....it was his estimate.  ;)

« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 11:50:52 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

jholmes217

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
    • View Profile
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2016, 11:49:07 AM »
I finished rebuilding my 428 Cobra Jet last summer.  It has original iron heads, with a POPs roller rocker and end stand system.  I used 70 Holley Jets as restrictors, and also used the long finger tins.  I didn't do any trimming on the tins.  I did a test fit, then flattened the parts of the tins that were in the way by tapping them flat with a hammer and anvil.  Seems to work just fine.  I use 7 quarts of oil in a stock pan with stock windage tray.  I use 7 quarts because of the message Ford put out that I found on the 428 Cobra Jet forum under oil level indicator in the component identification section.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 10:40:53 AM by jholmes217 »
Jeff
1969 Mach 1 Q code 428 Cobra Jet
4 speed, 3:50 traction lock
Olympia WA. area

machoneman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3859
    • View Profile
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2016, 11:59:53 AM »
My data says that every engine can't conform to the same rules.  Take a 428CJ with loose clearances and factory pan vs. an all-new, all-aluminum build with a 9 quart system.  You can't make generalities with this stuff. 

Data is data.  You posted it several years back and it's valid.  I see 5-8 hp swings there, which backs up the statement I made earlier (which BTW, didn't warrant a 60-minutes style investigation) that higher volume pumps rob horsepower.  I also made the statement that not everyone needs 80 psi oil pressures and HV pumps and I stand by that firmly based on all the different engines that I have in circulation. 

BTW, if you want to call my 10-15 hp estimate bull butter, then you can call David Reher and tell him....it was his estimate.  ;)

R-M's take on some of these issues.

http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-67-the-hidden-cost-of-free-horsepower/

Btw, their entire series of engine articles is excellent reading.
Bob Maag

ScotiaFE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
  • Howie
    • View Profile
Re: Oil Return tins
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2016, 12:07:55 PM »
Well Brent when you get "your" all aluminum FE running you be sure to
let us know where that needle is.  ::)