Blue thunder heads

[CaptCobrajet]

I think the answer to that question depends on what the intended purpose is.   My definition of "max efort" may not be the same as others.  I can tell you for sure that the assumption that a BT High Riser is THE best max effort casting is just not the case.  The Edelbrock casting can be prepped to meet or exceed anything you can do with the BT HR head.  It does require a high port plate, a valve cover rail spacer, and the use of the T&D race valvetrain to do it, but I promise you with no doubt about it, that the Pro Port casting is up to the task.  It is available, and in raw form, much less expensive per casting than the BT head, which is not available anyway.  I decided a few years ago that I could not afford to sink the development and programming effort into a BT head that was/is hard to get, and possibly not available.   A person in the business of custom porting just can't do it based on a one-time, or a few-time opportrunity.    I can get the port just as high as, higher actually, in the Ed head as the BT.  The mounting pads for the T&D will become too thin to keep from pulling the top of the head off if you go too far with the BT without a high port plate, which ends up making all of the heads a candidate for the high port plate.  That's all I want to say about the intake port plate unless you contact me at the shop, but let's just say it is a high riser on steroids,  it requires a custom manifold, and it is not cheap.

Pro Ports can be done all kinds of ways. I would not normally post prices in a thread like this, but the question was asked.  The "Street Pro Port" can be had for $3500 ready for springs........that includes the cost of the castings, super alloy Ferrea custom valves, valvejob, blending, valves lapped, and seals.  The heads  have a Meduim Riser intake port location, require no offset valvetrain, can be used with OEM mounting, or milled for race T&D for a minimal charge.  I have not made more than 785 hp/710 torque with that head.  It is the most bang-for-the-buck head that I know of at $3500.  It has much smaller port volume than other heads that start life with an "as cast" port.  The other day we ran a set on a 390 with a .525 lift solid roller cam I just came up with and it made 550 hp at 6300, and had peak torque of 483.  The point being.....that version of the Pro Port is usable on anything from  360 or so inches to 500 inches and does not break the bank.

From there, "max effort" is a very broad term.  I have some "sure 'nuff" max effort stuff that is $12K-plus for a complete pair.......and then it goes down from there depending on what you are doing and how much you want to spend.  A set of 850 hp capable Pro Ports that work with a modified Tunnel Wedge would be $5K before hardware.  The cost per HP in heads  from 850-capable to 1000-capable is high in an FE.  A bunch of stuff has to change with the heads, manifold, and other pieces, to get past the 850 hp threshhold with certainty and reliability.  Lots of stuff in between the "street" and the 'extreme" heads, but the best CNC stuff that comes from here will all start life from the Pro Port casting.

The BT and the BBM heads can certainly make big power, if you work them right.  In my opinion, both would require some filling in places, be it weld or epoxy, to get the best results.  I have had conversations with BBM about a porter's head down the road, and there are/were a number of small port BT castings that have great potential, but are scarce and rare these days.

[CaptCobrajet]

Side note about the T&D mounting.  In the extreme, the only way to secure the valvetrain in a raised port FE is by bolting the subplate through the five 1/2" head bolts.  If you raise the port to the "max" in the BT head, the spring pressure will pull the top of the port right off the head.  Using the subplate mounted through the head bolts, there is no stress on the top of the port, and it can be thin there without risk of pulling the head apart.  At the point that use of the subplate/port plate is a requirement, the Ed head is at no height disadvantage...............JMO.

[fekbmax]

Thanks Blair,
That's a great bit of general information and for sure your opinion is well respected.

[bn69stang]

Thanks Blair for the shared knowledge , much appreciated ..Bud

[Barry_R]

If you raise the port to the "max" in the BT head, the spring pressure will pull the top of the port right off the head. 

Ain't seen that one yet...

[XR7]

Me neither, never heard of it even. I suppose anything is possible... remember the saying, some people can break a cannon ball, in a sand box, with their bare hands?

First off, I am not trying to argue or be disrespectful in any way, but I am having a hard time understanding this. I don't think the Edelbrock heads can be ported higher than the BT HR heads, at least not without welding or adding material whether it be weld, or aluminum bar stock or whatever (high port plate that you don't want to discuss), to the top of the head. I never thought about welding or adding material under the T&D sub-plate, but I imagine that is what you are talking about Blair. In that case, it wouldn't matter what head you were working with, at that point, any of them would work for that. I guess I was not thinking outside the box and thinking more of ported castings, without weld or epoxy (at least on the roof, filling the floor sure).

I for sure understand your point about availability, no question there. I waited 3 years to get these HR heads and have had them almost 2 years now, before I got Jay's HR adapter and a upper intake I think I can use without too much modification.

I have two sets of BT HR heads here (not all mine of course), and some BT MR, DOVE MR, and also several sets of Edelbrock heads (no BBM yet, but soon!). I did some measuring, as I was thinking about what you said about the top of the head ripping off above the port. The newer style (most recent castings) have increased material under the rocker pad that runs full length of the head, for T&D single piece stands or plate. Anyway when you write something I always read it Blair, and also in talking with you on the phone I always learn something, every time. Your advice is spot on and has helped me stay out of trouble. So I looked at the spring pads and decided to measure them to the bottom of the deck, the BT HR were .230 higher than the Edelbrocks, and .100 higher than the BT MR. The BT HR rocker pad is .810 higher than the Edelbrocks, also of note is the valve guide is .180 longer. Anyway, the Edelbrock head would have trouble sooner than the BT as far as the roof of the port in the bowl, around the valve guide, if raised too much and made thin in that area. I took some pictures of the new style rocker pad on the BT HR and also comparing ot the Edelbrock head, I made a line across the top of where the roof would likely be on the ED (maybe it can go higher yet, but would soon run out of casting) and also at the same hieght on the BT HR. Thought it was interesting...



more views







the BT HR port is as cast, it is small, only 1.330x2.020, the port roof can be raised quite a bit.


Here is a ported HR that didn't go real high at all because the DOVE tunnel wedge intake was not welded on the roof and could not be raised anymore as it was paper thin (manifold) so the head was not raised any further, it did not break into the rocker pad bolts so it wasn't very high at all. It was higher however than where the head bolts would be on a Edelbrock, do at that point, the Ed port would be up into the T&D sub-plate. The black line is not at the same height as on the other heads, it is higher, right at the head bolt bosses, so another 1/4" or so higher than the other black lines in the other pictures... oops. I did not port these, and they were rubbed on before the guy that knew what he was doing ported them so the floor was too low and was not filled for whatever reason.



Here is a BT HR that is raised pretty good and you can see the roof went up into the rocker pad threaded holes. This is pretty common in small blocks and Chevy stuff. I always thought it was weird but pretty common like I said, and you just put some sealer on the threads and not worry about it.




Here is a DOVE HR that has the T&D subplate on top of the port. Again, this is not as high as the BT HR roof, and it is getting thing, just .120 over the head bolt bosses, in height which is lower than the as cast BT HR or any ported versions.



Here is a Ed with the rocker pads machined off to accept the T&D sub-plate, and then installed, this looks like it could be raised higher however, no measurement on this, not my picture.





Here are a few more of the revised BT rocker pad, maybe they did have one rip off or some problems that they decided to beef it up and make it stronger. My thought are that when something like that happens, it is from a crash and the rocker breaks off the mount, not the springs. Or if a spring breaks and it goes into float and or over rev, or valve crashes into piston, or any.all of the above.

[fekbmax]

Are those pro port edelbrock heads ?
I thought the pro ports came with small unfinished ports.

[XR7]

No they are regular Edelbrocks, a mild port for a street 390 engine. The pro ports do have small ports, made to be CNC ported, but the casting and machining is the same as far as exterior dimensions. I believe the (Pro Ports) ports do have thicker walls (smaller water jacket on the inside) so you can move the ports around. The rocker pads and machining is the same, just the chambers and ports are left small so the porter can do what he wants. The floors are definitely higher, so you can raise/straighten the port and not have to weld or fill with epoxy.

[CaptCobrajet]

Hey Thor,  you are thinking in the right direction.   The Pro Port is machined a little different than the regular Ed at the rocker pad.  They are solid all the way across at the flange.  It requires very tall spacers on the bolt bosses, and a billet aluminium subplate.  When the max effort language entered the discussion, all of the heads need more material to go where I am talking about in terms of port roof height.  All of the heads need the floors filled a bunch, and the Pro Ports have a higher floor as cast, so that part is an easier fix.  The spring pads do have to be modified in the Eds, but easy if done on the front end.  Valve angle gets tweaked a little too, which helps the geometry in the end.  I'm doing some now, just not interested in  putting pics on the interweb.  They are still inline valves, and it will still look like an FE.  You are correct that staying within the confines of the original casting, the BT is taller, but we can't seem to count on those anyway, so I came up with a way to modify the Eds, which are available, to meet the "max effort" call.   At some point, I will have a cnc program for the billet plates that makes the modification much less expensive.  It would also work on the BBM head, but a person would have to be okay with a ton of green stuff in the floor.  I would not want to put that much weld (heat) in the casting as it will soften the head if you do too much, too fast.  I have been plating the Victor manifolds for years to get to the HR port height.  I'm pretty excited about plating Jay's HR adapter to accomodate the extra height of this junk I'm doing now.   It will be much less expensive than a billet valley tray to just modify Jay's piece and then build the spider.  I like to get outside the box like you said, but time to do the R&D on this stuff is hard to come by these days.  I hope all is well up your way..........

[XR7]

Well I learned something again, I didn't know the Pro Port casting was solid across the rocker pad, that is smart and should be much stronger support for the T&D rocker sub-plate. I can understand you not wanting to put some pictures on the web on the high end stuff, no issue there.

Just lots of snow and cold weather here, it has warmed up a little and melted most of the snow we had piled up around here...

I am pretty excited about the HR adapter also. I had the valve cover rail raised some on that (just in case) and had Jay put "pro ports" LOL, or small peanut ports in the adapter so I can move them around to suite the head once ported, and the cast intake's runners I have. Here are a few teaser pics, both adapters pictured are high risers. I also had him mill the flange almost up to the valve cover rail, offset pushrod tubes, etc. I had a few other single cast spiders here, but they need too much welding I think.

[TomP]

Thor, i'm not sure that will fit under a flat hood!

I kind of think the BT head has more potential because the exhaust is raised too. The whole port casting bolt holes and all. The intake can be raised much more on the HR version.

I have some pix of raw Edelbrock ProPort, here you can see they added material around the rockershaft pedestals.


If the valve angles are altered i'm assuming tipped outward, say to 12 degrees or less? Not that much room to go unless the valve covers are altered, springs would get close to the rail. But it would give more room for rockers and I can see that being an issue with what I wanted to do. As the valves get longer the pushrods need to be further into the intake and the rocker pivot point moves close to the edge of the head. Looking at the Charlie Wescott HR intake for Ray Paquet it looks like they must be using 1.85" pivot length rockers (stock is 1.65 I think) and mounting them to the head and the intake adapter. The valve cover rail appears to be well more than inch further inboard.

[machoneman]

Well I learned something again, I didn't know the Pro Port casting was solid across the rocker pad, that is smart and should be much stronger support for the T&D rocker sub-plate. I can understand you not wanting to put some pictures on the web on the high end stuff, no issue there.

Just lots of snow and cold weather here, it has warmed up a little and melted most of the snow we had piled up around here...

I am pretty excited about the HR adapter also. I had the valve cover rail raised some on that (just in case) and had Jay put "pro ports" LOL, or small peanut ports in the adapter so I can move them around to suite the head once ported, and the cast intake's runners I have. Here are a few teaser pics, both adapters pictured are high risers. I also had him mill the flange almost up to the valve cover rail, offset pushrod tubes, etc. I had a few other single cast spiders here, but they need too much welding I think.

So XR7, what make is that intake? Is it a NASCAR 2 piece unit?

[fekbmax]

Still liking the blue thunder high risers..
I got a exstra kidney or lung, both in good shape,... 

[ec164]

XR7
very impressive looking set up there!!  Are you planning on running it this summer? If so where in Ohio? or what track do you race at, I'm in Mid MI and it would be worth the ride if is actual race day and can check out other than the normal cars I see here in MI. This is also a very interesting thread and always enjoy when Blair and you all are chasing power!! This is a very nice Forum...............Al

[cjshaker]

Thor (XR7) is a little ways from Michigan. A very very long little ways. Actually, I think he may be closer to Alaska than Michigan..lol