Author Topic: SOHC Gear Drive  (Read 26330 times)

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Autoholic

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2016, 02:05:19 PM »
Leny,

That is a valid point. Decking the engine and gasket thickness could be an issue. The design of the gear drive would have to allow some play at the cam gears. Decking the engine could be recovered with a thicker head gasket, but ultimately you would have to have a relatively precise target for deck thickness and gasket thickness. Another solution would be to have the cam gears cut after knowing specific distances, and there are companies that specialize in 1 off gears. No matter what, a gear drive is a more expensive option. If you're trying to build a SOHC on a budget however, that doesn't really work. No one says I'm building a $40,000+ engine on a budget. You would have to decide if the extra cost is worth it for you however. A gear drive is more about overkill than a necessity.

If timing chains were predictable, Formula 1 would be using them. The reality is that a timing chain will be subject to a harmonic wave, that changes as RPM changes. So Formula 1 uses gear drives, it is the only way to have flawless timing. What Jay has said about having done recent testing is very interesting however, and I was aware of the work Comp Cams has done to eliminate problems with rotational direction acting on the rockers.

The main problem with the 6 foot long chain, is that the tension mechanism is static, not dynamic. Jay, have you ever given serious thought to a spring loaded, oil pressure driven tensioner? There are some simple designs out there that could be adapted for use on the SOHC.

A simple spring loaded bolt design, that uses oil pressure...


Or a ratcheting design, that uses a spring and oil pressure...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 02:23:54 PM by Autoholic »
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Tommy-T

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2016, 10:43:48 PM »
The Cammer is a great, fun, engine. I got the Ford/nitro bug watching the all conquering blue Mickey Thompson Mustang as a 9-year-old fence rat. Still the greatest race car ever...for me at least.

A couple things:

The SOHC 427 is a neat kit. I had the privilege of working with FE Forum member SOHCLane  building his blown '63 Fairlane. I'm sure it was REALLY advanced in 1965, but 50 years later not-so-much. Realize that it IS a kit, and was not a "clean sheet of paper" engine. The parts are well made and the motor is quite reliable at the 5-600 horsepower level.

My first "real job" was as an apprentice  tech for Mercedes Benz in 1980. I was amazed by the 6 foot+ timing chains on those V8's when I started. At 60 thousand miles it was normal maintenance to roll a new chain in. Remove one valve cover, undo the masterlink and hook the new chain on, keep tension on the chain so the tensioner doesn't unload, and hand crank the engine (for ever it seemed) 'till the chain came back around. This procedure still makes me nervous.  Autoholic is quite right, a hydraulic tensioner would be a welcome upgrade. The stock manual tensioner is kind'a silly, but in '65 it was really "trick".

The one thing that Ford did get absolutely right was the non-adjustable rockers with the different thickness lash caps to adjust the valves. Many European high performance engines to this day use this style of overhead cam lash adjustment. Rock soild...especially compared to the later "elephant foot" adjustable rocker. All of the pictures of Pete Robinson's cammers with the valve cover off show non-adjustables in use. The clips between rockers to make lash caps changes possible was quite ingenious.
 
Very cool motor, indeed!


 

Autoholic

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2016, 11:46:06 PM »
Hot Rod's article on the engine is very enlightening, all of it done in 90 days. The SAE papers for the engine are incredibly interesting, to a car junkie engineer. I also have the GT-40 papers but haven't read them yet.

Ford in the 60's was nuts about racing, they had a hand in everything. Some of the most iconic engines ever made are Fords, from the 60's. 289 HiPo, 427 FE, 427 SOHC, DFV, 255 DOHC "Indy", Boss 429... there even was a 302 SOHC experimental.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 11:51:07 PM by Autoholic »
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wsu0702

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2016, 01:03:38 AM »
Here is a belt driven Cammer.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 03:52:26 PM by wsu0702 »

Autoholic

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2016, 01:40:56 PM »
Belts stretch more than chains. The difference is that you can take up most of the stretch in static, and dynamic stretch is easier to control with an idle pulley that is spring loaded. Belts are meant to stretch, where chains aren't. I can't find the video, but a few years ago I saw a mod motor on a dyno and watching the tensioner pulley at work was interesting. It was very active.

Awesome engine in that shot though. Is that the recreation of Sneaky Pete's Tinker Toy?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 01:46:44 PM by Autoholic »
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jayb

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2016, 02:51:16 PM »
Jay, have you ever given serious thought to a spring loaded, oil pressure driven tensioner? There are some simple designs out there that could be adapted for use on the SOHC.


I have, and in fact Bill Conley and I have had a few discussions about it.  I think it would require a custom  or modified chain tensioner arm, so that it would pivot on bearings, and an oil-pressure driven piston or stop that would push against the arm.  As you say, probably wouldn't be too tough.  One of those projects I haven't gotten to yet...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Autoholic

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2016, 03:47:25 PM »
There is plenty of design freedom in the area to come up with something. The downside will be cost, an elaborate part made pretty much as a one-off isn't a cheap part. I have a CAD model of the SOHC I can use over the holidays to come up with an idea floating around my brain. It involves a bearing at the pivot point of an arm, with a spring loaded tensioner. Thinking about it, I don't think a ratcheting tensioner would be a good idea. As you noticed, it fluctuates too much with RPM. Allowing the piston that tensions the idler gear to freely go in and out will allow the chain to relax when it is not being stretched. Eventually keeping the chain at a maximum amount of stretch could result in wearing out the chain and gears faster and does not adjust based on stretch at that moment in time. I could be wrong here, but if you look at a dynamic tensioner for a belt, it doesn't keep the belt at 100% stretch. It keeps the belt at a specific amount of load.
~Joe
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Autoholic

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2016, 04:00:43 PM »
Jay,

You seem to like the variable cam timing due to the chain. If the chain stretch is eliminated, either by a dynamic tensioner or a gear drive. would you ever consider creating a set of cam gears to function like a vari-cam?

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/varicam-anyone-anyone.629885/

Man would that create a very trick SOHC, mechanical advance cam timing to go along with mechanical advance spark timing and less chain stretch variation in the timing. It would be a real old school version of a modern day mod motor with VVT. Put a mechanical fuel injection system with a Spica pump and you're looking at one highly sophisticated, all mechanical engine.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 04:06:45 PM by Autoholic »
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wsu0702

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2016, 05:00:28 PM »
Belts stretch more than chains. The difference is that you can take up most of the stretch in static, and dynamic stretch is easier to control with an idle pulley that is spring loaded. Belts are meant to stretch, where chains aren't. I can't find the video, but a few years ago I saw a mod motor on a dyno and watching the tensioner pulley at work was interesting. It was very active.

Awesome engine in that shot though. Is that the recreation of Sneaky Pete's Tinker Toy?

No it's Jim Green's Assassin top fuel dragster.  Jim builds all of his cammers with belt drives now. Belts do not increase in length over time like chains do (hence my earlier statement) and they are extremely efficient (95+%) and they dampen vibration and shock loads.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjCJTtIUKI4
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 05:10:18 PM by wsu0702 »

Barry_R

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2016, 05:33:10 PM »
Pretty much every NASCAR and Pro Stock engine runs a belt.  Probably not a bad option...

Devil69

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2016, 12:40:01 AM »
As a gear and gearbox designer by profession (and degreed mechanical engineer, licensed and recognized by IL, P.E. #062.068693), this topic of a gear drive for a SOHC motor is of particular interest to me.  If I could help in any way with a potential design I would be more than willing to.  If that were to only check someone else's design over or to assist in coming up with a design I would relish at the opportunity.  I have been limited in my ability so far to accurately conceptualize the layout in my cad program, however, as I do not have an accurate model of a SOHC engine, and do not have a SOHC engine to create a model from! 

As for my qualifications to help, I am a contributor to the AGMA (American Gear Manufacturer's Association) and know some of the highest quality gear manufacturing facilities in the business (Chicago is a large hub for the Gear Industry).  I can help optimize gear geometry, can run gear design calculations per AGMA standards, and can create actual blueprints with appropriate GD&T (geometric dimensioning and tolerancing) per the latest ASME Y14.5M-2009 standard (as opposed to simple drawings with plus/minus tolerancing, which routinely induce unacceptable tolerance stack ups, or simply do not convey the true intent of the part as it would need to function in application).

I freely admit that I am a completely biased party to the discussion of whether a gear drive makes sense for use in this application, and if the standard method of a stretching chain is already good enough (or perhaps even desirable), predictably repeatable in how much it stretches, able to be accurately compensated for, cheaper, easier to maintain, etc. then there's no question that as an engineer I would absolutely advise my management to stick with the simple solution that already works.  I question however how predictably repeatable the amount of stretch is, and whether there would be more precise alternatives to vary the advance if done so intentionally, as opposed to reacting and correcting for whatever the given advance or retard is provided by the system, without really having control over it. 

Additionally I question the power consumption of running the chain as opposed to a gear drive.  I'm not a chain and sprocket designer so I can't really comment with confidence on the losses, but I would imagine a chain that long and heavy would require more power to throw around than the gear sets would be. 

Also one thing that I do know for sure is that in power transmission a chain is about the worst case you can get with respect to overhung load on the shaft.  The chain tension itself (without any load along the chain at all) will already cause a (potentially significant, depending on the amount of tension) radial force on the shaft at the sprocket, and then the shaft will have to then also transmit torque when the system is rotating.  This is a classic case of combined loading in torsion and bending.  Don't get me wrong, the separating forces of a gear set will cause overhung load as well, but only as the torque increases on the system, and the gear set will have significantly lower radial forces than a chain, and can even be designed to limit the separating forces as well.  Now this could all be minutia, and have no real world effect if fatigue failure of the sprocket shafts never occurs in the current design, but then again who's to say it wont happen at the most inopportune moment, like right when its reached its fatigue life and is at its highest stress during a pass at Drag Week and decides to relieve itself from the engine to catch some sun ('cause if it were to happen at all, that's the most likely candidate of when).  As an engineer I would call that a failure, David Freiburger would call that Un-Good.

Some quick comments on the proposed gear design:
Be careful with double helical.  There are a few design considerations that should be investigated before choosing that geometry that I can get into longer detail on that not everyone will probably care about, as I've already gotten way too in depth and long winded as it is.

Some questions about the design:
How much face width can you get away with? This will be key in determining whether a double helical is really the best option.

Last thing:
Don't believe in the limitations of any given rule of thumb for any type of engineering problem.  There's always exceptions to the rule, and if you know the design criteria, the optimal engineering solution (for the given criteria, which may only apply to this one thing) rarely falls in line with rules of thumb.  Most of the time however the truly optimal engineering solution is not chosen due to compromises that make life easier for other considerations, like cost, manufacturing, and assembly which of course are valid and usually more important criteria in industry.  For this case the double helical system could very well be the optimal design, but I also know that if you show me that system I could probably design the "worse" spur system to be quieter, stronger, and cheaper.  There's a lot of questions to be answered before being able to make those kinds of determinations though.

Sorry for the long reply, I'm just a gearhead.
Calvin

P.S.
I think the links to the scans of the Car Craft article may be broken.  I only see X's.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 01:47:50 AM by Devil69 »

Autoholic

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2016, 11:00:49 PM »
I can still see every picture Calvin.

Thanks for your thoughts. As of right now, this is all just theoretical. I have a CAD model of a SOHC, and from a few different measurements compared with those from an actual engine, I've found out that it's pretty accurate. Of greater interest right now (at least to the SOHC community) would be a dynamic chain tensioner. It would be cheaper and easier to implement. I plan on doing some designs for one in the coming weeks.

As for the gear drive, I haven't tried to design the gears in CAD however I think there would be enough room for a double helical gear drive. The primary reason why I'd go for a helical gear, it wouldn't have any play by nature of having at least 2 teeth always engaged on each gear. Double helical, due to having zero axial thrust loads. A spur drive might cut it, but if you're doing a gear drive on a SOHC you're already going for overkill. The major problem would be tolerances, everything would have to be just right so that the gears don't interfere with each other. I don't have the financial resources to pursue this right now, but if one day I can, I will.
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Leny Mason

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2016, 08:31:25 AM »
Hi, Devil 69 The problem I see is the Gear mesh with difference in the  heads and gaskets, It would be great to see how it would work, Jay has researched and done more than anyone I know of I will never turn mine eight grand {I hope} and that is  were the stretch comes in from what I have read, no rev limiters back then. thanks Leny Mason

cammerfe

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2016, 01:00:38 PM »
I'm just an observer on this topic, not having had much to do directly with a Ford Cammer engine for some years. But, unless you have the sort of facility that Formula One teams use, and a budget to go with it, I believe a gear drive would not be the best approach. My own daily driver engine, also used to set the ECTA E/F CC record, is a dual overhead cam V8. It has +/- 160K miles on it and the chain drive is still just fine. I'd think a side-by-side comparison might be in order to see what might be easily adapted from one to the other without going so far astray as to go to gears with all their inherent clearance difficulties. JMO

KS

Autoholic

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Re: SOHC Gear Drive
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2016, 05:43:13 PM »
The difference between your modern DOHC V8 and the 427 SOHC, is that the timing chains aren't as long and the mod motor has a dynamic tensioner for each chain. The chain will still stretch at lower RPM's. In my opinion, what matters more is the rate you load and unload the timing chains. Every time you shift, you change RPM's in a rather shot period of time. The easiest thing to do, would be to create a dynamic tensioner.

I've been thinking about this, what the design should look like. There are two trains of thought right now.

1.  Go for a hydraulic based tensioner, using oil from the passenger side head. Hydraulic based tensioners are used in most engines today. The problem with this, is that if the oil pressure was to ever drop, the tensioner would be relying on spring pressure that might not be enough.

2. Go for a spring based tensioner, similar to how drive belt tensioners are designed. The benefit of this design, is that it could easily be made to work on the SOHC and oil pressure wouldn't matter. Thinking in terms of a vintage look, this is also more likely to have been a possibility back in the 60's. The idea I have in my mind, would still use the tension bolt as part of the assembly to set initial spring pressure.
~Joe
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